Featured Doesn't 1 John 5:1 grammatically say that regeneration logically precedes faith?

No, you must read them in context, which necessitates including the verses around them.

You are agreeing with me, I said you cannot isolate verses, and now you are giving a perfect example why this is so.

Again, you have to read this verse in context.

The problem with 1 John 5:1 is that in context it is not teaching the order of salvation.

The second problem is that there are numerous verses that do show the order in salvation, and every single one of them show faith precedes being born again.

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 1:12-13 teaches that to those persons who received Jesus and believed on his name, to these persons God gave the power to be born again and become the sons of God. This was God's will and his doing. God determined to regenerate those that believe on Jesus.

Otherwise you get the ridiculous teaching that God makes a person born again, but they are not yet a son of God. But God makes them born again so that they have the ability to believe, and then after they believe God gives them even more power to become sons of God. Total nonsense and butchering the word of God.

 

Correct.....what is happening is a sinful avoidance of the text itself.We see the usual suspects who cannot begin to address the text and answer the op...so they divert and look for an excuse to not answer this verse.We all see this for what it is.GT you will find no one who complains here who can honestly address this.

 

The text is pretty much as you atated it was, so the burden of proof on those who disagree with your points is still there, but aince you cannot be refuted by strictly grammar and construction/syntax from the greek text, some here resort to the ols "out on context/calvinists make things up" part!

Not all arminians/non cals do that, but certain ones seem to play that all the time!

 

Yes you did.

Well, I do not know Greek, neither am I an expert on grammar, but I know scriptures cannot contradict themselves, and that there are nearly a dozen verses that all clearly show that faith precedes regeneration. So, you are correct, this is my argument.

That said, I will say this, 1 Jhn 5:1 mentions believing before it mentions being born again. It says the person who believes on Jesus is born of God. Now if it said the person born of God believes I think you would have a better argument. But again, in context, I don't think this verse is even discussing order, so it simply cannot be used to prove order.

But you really don't have scripture supporting your view. This is the ONLY verse that can remotely be viewed to support your view, while there are multiple scriptures that support the other view. It is no contest.

I never made an argument from grammar except that believing is mentioned first. I don't think 1 Jhn 5:1 is discussing order. But I could show you many verses that show the order of faith before regeneration or life.

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Most famous verse in the Bible, and it clearly shows you must first believe to have life. This is regeneration, to be made alive again.

I could show you many more that are just as obvious, and I think you know this.

To believe the Calvinist view, you must go against the bulk of evidence. The vast majority of evidence goes against Calvinism. You know this.

 

well...

All of us are dead in our sins and tresgressions...

None seek after God, all gone astray

natural man cannot receive the things of God, as natural cannot receive spiritual

Jesus staed ONLY those whom the father enabled to hear him and understand will come unto him...

God chose us, the weaker and baser things....

God preappointed those to receive the Gospel and get saved, God openned hearts/minds up to it...

Seems like the "majority" supports our views, not yours!

 

Let's simply the sentence to illustrate the point.

Everyone who believes ... has been born... (ESV)

What happened first?

Rob

 

Just a question...
In orde to have this eternal life, literally life of Christ, doesn't thast presuppose the sinner has already passed over from death to life, from being spiritually dead to spiritually alive again, and has been regernated by the Spirit to being reborn from above already though?

 

1 John 5:1a
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: (AV 1873)
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, (NASB95)
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, (NKJV)

Whoever believes… is born…

Now which comes first?

Rob

 

You misunderstood me, I was agreeing with you.

I agree, you did.

I am limited in that I neither know Greek, nor am I an expert at grammar. That said, I believe the many verses that all show faith preceding regeneration score a complete knockout. Scripture cannot contradict itself. You don't use one OBSCURE verse to override a dozen or more verses that are very plain and easy to understand. For example Ephesians 1:13;

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

You cannot argue that Eph 1:13 does not address order. It shows that a person, #1 hears the gospel, #2 believes the gospel, #3 and then is sealed by the Holy Spirit. I would argue from Romans 8:9 that a person is regenerated the moment they receive and are sealed by the Holy Spirit.

I don't know Greek, so I have no idea if what you are telling me is true or not. You need to debate with someone who knows Greek and Greek grammar well. I simply am not equipped to enter into this type of argument.

That said, I rely on the fact that the scriptures are accurately translated and can be depended upon in English. Again, at least a dozen or more verses all show faith preceding regeneration, I believe this easily overrules one obscure verse. By your own admission this verse is slightly obscure and could go either way.

So did Biblicist. You can pull one verse out of scripture and prove anything with it. This is exactly what many cults do.

I would disagree. You are either dead or alive. There are not different degrees of life. Jesus said the person who has believed has passed from death to life.

Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

This verse follows the order shown in Ephesians 1:13, Jesus said the person who hears his word and believes has everlasting life. Then he says that person has passed from death to life.

Calvinists run into difficulty after difficulty because they will simply not believe what scripture plainly says. They have to argue that a person is alive, but does not have everlasting life or is saved.

The argument over John 1:12-13 becomes ridiculous, the Calvinist has to argue that God makes a person "born again" , but that person is not a "son of God" yet. After being born again, this person must now believe, and then God gives additional power to this person to become a son of God. That is just ridiculous.

Some here claim a person can walk around for years (even decades) being regenerated before they believe on Jesus. This person would be both spiritually alive and spiritually dead at the same time! R.C. Sproul believes this ridiculous theory.

No, scripture is plain, you are dead in sins until you believe. The moment you believe your sins are forgiven and you receive the Holy Spirit. You are now spiritually alive. No problems, no contradictions, no ridiculous theories necessary to explain away serious problems that Calvinism encounters.

Of course, this would mean that Calvinism is total error, and many folks do not want to admit this is true.

 

hav eto take a step back, and see that in orderfor the person to even believe, God has to enable them to be able to do that first!

God choses them , applies His grace to them, thus able to believe , and do believe!

sinners cannot get to faith in jesus without first being convicted/enabled by the Spirit himself to do just that!

 

Show where the scriptures say that.

Show where the scriptures say that.

Then how did the Samaritans believe on Jesus because of the words of the Samaritan woman?

Jhn 4:28 The woman then left her waterpot, and went her way into the city, and saith to the men,
29 Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?

Jhn 4:39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

How did these Samaritans believe on Jesus from simply hearing a woman say "He told me all that I ever did." ??

 

This verse is not addressing order, it is simply telling you that the mark that identifies someone born of God is that they believe in Jesus.

That said, it could have said "he that is born of God believes" but it doesn't.

You can't form doctrine with one obscure verse while ignoring a dozen or more verses that all show faith precedes regeneration. That is a surefire recipe for error.

 

How cna a dead person cause Himself to have new life though?

without the Spriit enabling them...

jesus said in John 3 that the Spirit does that work of saving sinners, and those whom he has done that to believe in Jesus unto salvation!

 

You didn't answer my question. How did the Samaritans believe on Jesus from the Samaritan woman simply saying, "He told me all things that I ever did."?

You ask twenty thousand questions, don't you think you should answer one once in awhile?

So, answer my question please.

 

they believed in what he saod to them due to the father openning their hearts/minds, drawing them unto jesus for salvation!

Same way you and i got saved!

 

I didn't get saved from a woman telling me a man told her everything she ever did. How could that save a person?