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Featured Double Predestination

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Reynolds, Jul 31, 2018.

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  1. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    I ran up on a quote of Calvin tonight in my reading.

    "By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death."

    John Calvin. Institutes of the Christian Religion, ed. John T. McNeill, trans. Ford Lewis Battles, 2 vols. (Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1960), 3.21.5. ↩︎

    Why do so many modern Calvinists become offended when Arminians use the term "double predestination"? Calvin plainly states and embraces double predestination in this quote. He refers to it multiple times as "predestined to reprobation."
     
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  2. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
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    God actively chooses whom to condemn, but because he knows they will have a sinful nature, the way he foreordains them is to simply let them be – this is sometimes called "preterition." (Robert L. Reymond, A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1998, page 345.)

    Therefore, this foreordination to wrath is passive in nature, unlike God's active predestination of his elect where he overcomes their sinful nature.
     
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  3. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    I guess I see a slight difference maybe, but I don't exactly understand it.
    Would It be accurate to say Calvin believed in double predestination?
     
  4. Robert William

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    Created equally, what the heck is that supposed to mean?? ALL humans are born in sin and are under the influence of the spirit of the air. (Satan)

    Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
     
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  5. Robert William

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    ALL humans are born with a sinful nature and are unwilling to embrace the gospel.
     
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  6. Robert William

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    YHWH is NOT obligated to save anybody, and nobody deserves the love of God.
     
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  7. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    Are you a Calvinist? If so, maybe you can elaborate on what Calvin meant.
     
  8. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    Ok. We agree on that.
     
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  9. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    And we agree on this.
     
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  10. Robert William

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    I am a biblicist. :) Scripture is the ultimate and final authority over all I hear and read.
     
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  11. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
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    Some say so. I think it may also be a problem in translation.
     
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  12. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    He used the term 'preordained'. I may be wrong here, and anybody who sees that I am wrong, please correct me here, but I see God decreeing something as Him being active in accomplishing it, whereas by ordaining it, He uses other means to fulfill it.

    Plus, didn't Calvin speak French, and maybe, as @TCassidy already stated, its a translation issue?
     
  13. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    It very well could be. I have no real knowledge of any language outside English.

    You are not A Calvinist, so the following question is not directed at you, but I am sure you can shed light on it. Given the above statement of Calvin, why do those who proudly identify as "Calvinists" come off the rails in uproar when any non-Calvinist says Calvinism embraces "double predestination"?
     
  14. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    One of the most evil of false doctrines. God help those who preach it.
     
  15. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Westminster Confession Chapter III; Of God's Eternal Decree

    I. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeable ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

    II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions; yet has He not decreed anything because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.

    III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death.

    IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated, and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.

    V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, has chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto; and all to the praise of His glorious grace.

    VI. As God has appointed the elect unto glory, so has He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by His power, through faith, unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.

    VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extends or withholds mercy, as He pleases, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praised of His glorious justice.

    VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men, attending the will of God revealed in His Word, and yielding obedience

    thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election. So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God; and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the Gospel.



    Westminster Assembly.. Westminster Confession.
     
  16. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    Seems to harmonize perfectly with what we call "double predestination."

    Why do so many Calvinists not gladly admit they embrace ddouble predestination. Why embrace it practically yet deny the term?
     
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  17. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    They think they can avoid it because the call the second part passive.
     
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  18. atpollard

    atpollard Active Member

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    Mr Sproul explains the subtle differences better than I could ...

    “Double” Predestination by R.C. Sproul

    The gist of the objection comes down to this:
    1. Some view Double Predestination as God actively chooses some people to hear and receive Mercy & Grace. God equally prevents others from hearing the Gospel and God creates within them the evil nature that compels them to sin. This view of "DOUBLE" predestination makes God equally responsible for the salvation of some and the sins of others. I think there is a big fancy term for this like "radical supralapsarianism", or something. This is the view actually held by the heretical, so called, "Hyper-Calvinism".
    2. The orthodox Reformed view of Double Predestination is that all men are responsible for their own sin (God forces no one to sin) but that God chose to save some and, as an inevitable consequence, also chose to leave some in their self-created state of "lost" (reprobate is the term we like to use for those not chosen by God for salvation). God is thus active in salvation (God saves) and passive in damnation (God leaves sinners free to sin without interference from Him).
    Number 1 is called Positive-Positive schema Double Predestination, because God takes a positive (active) role in saving and damning people. Number 2 is called Positive-negative schema Double Predestination, because God takes a positive (active) role in saving, but a negative (passive) role in allowing sinners to sin and be damned.

    It is still Double Predestination, because by choosing NOT to intervene and grant a new heart, God has predestined the lost to remain lost. However God never forced anyone to sin, so the responsibility for Human damnation rests with Human actions (including Adam), not God.

    I hope that helps.
    (I am a Particular Baptist!)
     
  19. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    It's all double, it's all God choosing, and it's all evil.
     
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  20. atpollard

    atpollard Active Member

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    So GOD didn't choose to make us alive while we were still dead in sins, because of His love and to show off His grace through His handiwork (us) according to a pre-existing plan?

    [Eph 2:4-10 NIV] 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
    Let me get my "Arminian Highlighter" (Sharpie) and fix that. :rolleyes:
     
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