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Double Predestination

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by JonC, Jul 15, 2019.

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  1. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I can see how you arrive at that conclusion.
    Myself, I don't subscribe to "deism", as that makes the Lord considerably less than the Lord.

    In other words, He rules from His throne in the Heavens...
    I have no trouble ( anymore ) believing that He has a hand, whether passive or active, in everything.
    Do I believe that He actively decreed everything to happen?

    That's a tough one for me to grapple with.
    But, at the same time, it is not beyond my capability to accept.

    If by "decree" one means "actively purposed and sponsored", I would say, "no", at this point in my understanding.
    If by "decree" one means "both passively and actively purposed", then I would definitely agree without reservation.

    My judgment on the matter is by no means final.
     
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  2. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Did I?
    Or did you somehow think that God leads with love in everything?
    He doesn't.

    He leads with His own purposes.
    He leads with His own agenda.
    He refuses to be put in a box, Rockson.

    He does not do everything with a eye to loving His creation.
    He does everything with an eye to doing His will ( Daniel 4:35 and many others ).
    With respect,
    I think you should come to grips with the idea that God, in order to maintain His character of being God, He can work things according to His own purposes ( Romans 9:11, Ephesians 1:11, Ephesians 3:11, Hebrews 6:17, James 1:18 ).
    Just because He is love, does not mean that He leads with it in all His dealings with mankind.

    For example,
    The argument could be made that if He loved Adam and Eve, He could've stepped in and prevented them from falling in the first place...
    But He didn't.
    Where is this rule found in Scripture?
    I agree, sir.
    Where the spirit of the Lord is ( Romans 8:9-11 ), within believers, there is liberty from sin ( Romans 6:1-11, Romans 6:18 ).
    Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty to serve God ( Galatians 5:13 ).

    Whereas before we were born again, there wasn't.:)
     
    #42 Dave G, Jul 17, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2019
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  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The question is whether God created knowing His creation would fall. I believe He did.

    The issue is philosophical. It depends on how one explores the topic.

    If we were to say, for example, that God is the source of man's sin as He is the source of man's salvation....well, then we have a problem.

    I stick with a basic predestination (based on omniscience) because I think it the most biblical. If we go to decree vs ordain it gets a bit more subjective.
     
  4. Rockson

    Rockson Active Member

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    Yes I'd say you did.

    Yes he does but don't take out of CONTEXT what I'm saying.

    Yes he does and his purposes are LOVE. By saying that that does not go to say that God has to bring judgement on certain ones of his creation which he has to do to be just but justice is a manifestation of LOVE for the universe.

    Genuine LOVE however has been shown to all creation by making the gospel offer to go out to ALL. Even you believe the gospel is to be preached to all. I believe however it's a genuine offer for people to be saved not a disingenuous instruction God has given all men to repent. when all the time according to you Calvinists they can't.

    His agenda IS LOVE. God is LOVE. He doesn't just have LOVE he is that very thing. 1 John 4:7

    And David he refuses to be taken out of the parameters of what he is as well.

    And his will is LOVE David.

    And I'm sure glad we're being respectful. And with much respect you need to come to grips with the idea that God's character is indeed LOVE and his principles are totally in line with that description. God is LIGHT and in him is NO darkness. 1 Jn 1:5
     
  5. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Actually, many Synergists agree that God knew His creation would fall. They use the "down the corridor of time" argument to explain it. I think it is more complicated than whether God knew His creation would fall. We know that God does not cause anyone to sin (James 1:13). Ergo, He is not the author of sin. God is also omniscient; nothing escapes His knowledge. But we also know that God decreed the Elect from before creation (Ephesians 1:4). So, when it comes to the doctrine of election, it is not just God's knowledge of the Elect and Reprobate that is established, it is also His decree. This makes God active in all facets of Election. This is the material difference between Supralapsarianism and Infralapsarianism.
     
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  6. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    God created Adam without sin because there was no law until later. When given the law Adam wanted to sin (hated God). But without sin we cannot know God according to his glorious attributes. No sin = no mercy. No sin = no righteousness. No sin = no justice and so on. Paul says God created all to teach the angels about his wisdom. And later mentions him enduring sin withholding his wrath to display his mercy.

    “and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord,” Ephesians 3:9–11 (NASB95)

    “What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,” Romans 9:22–23 (NASB95)

    God's glory is full known in the eternal punishment of the wicked where we see his justice, sovereignty, righteousness. And in his mercy upon those whom he arbitrarily chose from the doomed mass, taking his own wrath in their place on the cross in Christ, thereby revealing his love and grace.
     
  7. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Think about God's control over all, even the smallest particle. John in Revelation 13:8 says God wrote the names of the elect in the Book of Life before the foundation of the world. And science tells us each person is a combination of 1 in a million or so sperm cells coming into contact with 1 in a million or so ovum. Each at the right time and place under the right conditions. And that any different combination would result in a different person being born. This also aligns with the Traducian theory of procreation in the Bible.

    And then, imagine every progenitor in your family tree, saved or unsaved, being necessary for your existence. Had any single offspring along the way been different, all from that point on would be a different person. And you would not exist.

    So in order for you to exist, each union of each sperm and ovum in your family tree must have fallen out precisely according to God's plan. Every free choice in marriage partners, including the events leading up to the moment of conception. Or every evil act as in the case of David and Bathsheba that ultimately produced Jesus. Or accidents, wars, diseases and violent deaths, and so on, must be under God's direct control. And all falling out according to his eternal decree for you to be reading this now. So the reprobate wicked are as much as God's plan as are the elect.
     
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    This was Edwards point. Omniscience, at the very minimum, demonstrates predestination.
     
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  9. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Just curious, you keep talking about the Love of God. What about the wrath of God?
     
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  10. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Hyper Calvinist are the most consistent. Great example are WESTBORO BAPTISTS They have thought it through and understand the 5 points perfectly.


    Start with this.

    1 Ephesians 1

    4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love.

    Before you were ever created God Loved you and you are elect.

    Therefore God HATED that is DOES NOT LOVE the REPROBATE before he ever created them with sole purpose to be tortured in eternity for his glory.

    Treat others as they wanted to be treated. I suppose the Reprobate is justified with God.


    When I read Calvinists describe HYPER-CALVINIST I can only laugh at it is the very objections they raise against HYPER-CALVINIST are forgotten when debating against non-calvinists.
     
  11. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    God's wrath is not misguided or without purpose. All geared towards correction of the sinner.

    Someone who sins has gone against the COMMAND of God.

    Here is the most difficult concept for a Calvinist, The Command of GOD is what he wants and desires.

    So you should contemplate that when he commands something does that mean God REALLY wants that done or is God deceptive, can fake and LIE about what he wants done?
     
  12. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    This is agreed. The only time "choice" was given, at that time, but such was removed from access to humankind when they were dismissed from the Eden.

    Eve was deceived, tricked.

    Adam choose knowing the consequences.

    By one man sin entered the world, not one woman.

    This is one reason I reject double election/destination linking.

    After Eden, there is no choice involved in destination. One is bound in sin and is lost.

    God selects (elects) those He purposes of His good pleasure to use as He chooses be it for redemption or for, as you posted above, used to bring about calamity.

    There is no obligation for God to give choice, opportunity, or even acknowledgement ("depart I never knew you") to the lost.
     
  13. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    See my reply that I gave.

    There is NO choice offered to humankind.

    If such were the case, where are the two trees on the earth, today?

    Is man born pure, or sinful?
     
  14. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    He also creates vessels of wrath prepared for destruction. Romans 9
     
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  15. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    I take a bit different approach.

    The creation was already in chaos prior to the "first day." The sin had already infested all that God had created "In the beginning, God created the heavens and earth, and the earth was without form and void."

    Yet, there was water (not vapor) but actual water with actual land under the water, PRIOR to the first day.

    So, planting the trees in the Eden was not "knowing sin" (though He did know) it was allowing choice. God had already established redemption (Christ was slain before the creation).

    Therefore, I do not see "double choice (predestination thinking)" involved in either destination or election.

    Humankind is "already condemned" and God selects those of His choosing to do His bidding not only in redemption but also selecting those not given to be redeemed to carry out special tasks (Alexander, Caesar, Pilot, Herod, Pharaoh, Hitler, ...)

    Double predestination would have God selecting sin for Adam and therefore the verse would have to read "By God sin entered the world..."

    But it does not.

    Just because God certainly knew the fall would take place, it was not His determination to prevent nor condone the fall. Such was Adam's choice. The only one who ever actually had a choice.

    In my opinion, pure Calvinistic thinking hold that:

    Folks don't choose to be redeemed.

    Folks don't choose to be not redeemed.
     
  16. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    I think I disagree (have to ponder more to a final conclusion). :)

    Let me work through a couple random thoughts:

    If destination is "already" then it is not "pre."

    The lost are "already" condemned. As such the destination "is." They are dead men walking for God is not conformed to time any more than He is to conditions of space.

    To the human, time based, rational, then I suppose one could consider destination as "pre" but such is difficult for me to place God in a system in which He is conformed to time. That places time as controlling God.

    Because there are only two destinies established for humankind, some support for a "double" predestination would sound logical. However, in the thread, it seems that some mingle election and predestination together. When that happens it places God into choosing who will be lost. That just isn't Scriptural. What God does is choose from the lost who will be redeemed. The lost are already lost, God selects from that group, He doesn't create another Christ, but transforms the believer into the likeness of Christ.
     
  17. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    From man's perspective, there was a choice.
    God was not responsible for their sin ( James 1:12-15 ).

    Look at what happened here ( Genesis 3:6 )...was not Eve tempted, gave in, and gave to Adam?
    There was a choice...they flubbed it; As would any of us in their place.
    Now their descendants ( us ) only choose to sin, and continually, apart from the grace and mercy of God.

    From God's perspective?
    The choice was already planned for.
    Knowing they would sin when tested, did not make it any less certain.
    That is why I believe in both "passive decree" and "active decree".
    They are not here.
    God has barred access to them for now, and at least one of them will be made available to God's children here ( Revelation 22:1-2 ).
    " The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies." ( Psalms 58:3 )
     
  18. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I see why you are where you are.
    I also still wrestle with this, myself.

    But I don't mingle election and predestination together.
    What I see from Scripture, is that, like a potter, God makes one vessel for honor, and another for dishonor.
    It's not a subject to be treated lightly, to say the least.
     
  19. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Perhaps you can explain how your word "creates" came from:

    "22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?"​

    Certainly, in the earlier verses, God creates vessels but the vessels are created out of the same lump of clay. From that single clay lump (sin filled clay) He forms vessels of honor and dishonor. Do you not remember that it is speaking of the value and how vessels are appraised?

    God does not make vessels of dishonor from a different mixture of clay, but of the same dust in which Adam and Eve were created.

    All have sinned. God selected from the all those that He purposed to be redeemed. From all destined to eternal separation, He purposed to re-destine to eternal association.

    This is a bit off topic, but relates to the general thinking of good, evil, and destiny:
    The modernists and psychologists consider the factors that twist the human into all manner of Evil. Generally, they reject one born is conformed to sinfulness (born in sin). So, because the world system imposes itself of the thinking of the typical human, a certain rejection of born condemned is seen.

    Hence, the formation of the thinking of a certain time of safety, in which a child is considered "innocent" until there is that awakening that sin is sin. I hold that thinking.

    But there are those that do not. They call for Baptism even at the first breath for the infant.
    Prior to the Renaissance, if the woman died in childbirth, the midwives would cut the child out of the body to see if it would take a breath, waiting with the sacred water in hand to quickly put it on the child before it died. Strange it is that the church at that time actually (because men were not allowed in the birthing rooms) had a certain dispensation that a midwife could baptize a baby in an emergency.
     
  20. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you and said nothing different.

    I never said that he did.

    But do you know what it is referring to when the analogy says vessels of dishonor? God prepares vessels for destruction. It is their purpose. It is for God's glory. It is just. It is not our way, it is his. Is it hard to swallow? Yes.
     
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