Double Predestination

And thank God they do!

You know though Dave if you're going to quote Rom 9 that's fine. But you better quote the later chapters as well. Are you aware that the ones who were rejected in Rom 9 it is said they could still be grafted in?

Nobody here is denying ones who choose to stay in darkness won't be cast into hell.

I suspect you've really made your mind up about this which I consider most unfortunate. To others I'd bring up the story of the good Samaritan....he showed goodness to the one beaten up by the robbers BUT DIDN'T just give a measure of help but FOLLOWED IT THROUGH until the man was fully restored. He told the inn keeper he was leaving but gave instructions for the keeper to take care of him until his recovery was FULL and he'd pay him for the expenses. I'd kindly suggest you really do need to focus on Luke 10 with an emphasis on verse 35.

Lesson learned....what God calls mercy and grace can only be defined as such which stays with one until the recovery is FULL. Your stating well God shows men grace but well not salvation grace is such a diminishing of the LOVE nature of God it startles the mind that one could even consider it.

It can be compared to one lost in the wilderness and another drops down a few goods from a helicopter and takes off not willing to show further help KNOWING they're still going to die. Not only is it not mercy not only is it not grace I think many would call it a form of cruelty. I believe God would as well.

Let me ask....if you were in a burning building and someone made sure you had a few water bottles to cool you down would you by any stretch of the imagination make a statement that they really showed you grace? Showing grace is REAL HELP and any help God shows is GENUINE not a half measure which means really absolutely nothing.

 

"In other words, when someone can show me the Scriptures that clearly state that all of His creation was "created in love", then I will agree to His "Omnibenevolence"."

That is easy. And finding the scripture is easy, but Lets first start with the TRINITY itself.

Is there a moment God the Father ever hated Jesus Christ?

No the Love is ETERNAL.

Psalm 145

9The LORD is good to all,
And His mercies are over all His works.

17The LORD is righteous in all His ways
And kind in all His deeds.

IN genesis every creation he saw it was Good and Mankind was created in his likeness.


James 1 17
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change

God NEVER changes. Some things could only be explained in anthropomorphism. But ultimately Nothing changes God.

Hebrews 1
1God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,4having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.



1 Ephesians 4

Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love

^^^CREATED IN LOVE^^^

1 Timothy 4
4For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude; 5for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.

"It isn't obvious to me when I consider that God's attribute of "Omni-Benevolence" is not something that I see in the Bible."



Psalm 100
5For the LORD is good;
His lovingkindness is everlasting
And His faithfulness to all generations.

Psalm 145
17The LORD is righteous in all His ways
And kind in all His deeds.


Good, Love, Charity, Benevolent are pretty much synonyms. Without Love Good ceases to be Good.


This is a pretty big hurdle in becoming a Christian if your brought up fear based, terrorism.

Do you view Kindness, Mercy, Gentleness Meekness and Love as weakness?

 

Respectfully,
I don't see either of you addressing His wrath and coming judgments...the fact that he hates sinners, as well as the sin ( Psalms 5:5 ).

The fact the He curses people who preach a false Gospel ( Galatians 1:6-10 )
The fact that a loving God could curse Caanan from the womb ( Genesis 9:25 ).
That those who thought they were His, were in fact, not...and He refers to them as "workers of iniquity" in Matthew 7:21-23.
That Jesus refers to people as "cursed" in Matthew 25:41.

To me, it's a pretty big hurdle to simply ignore the words, "hate", "cursed", "accursed" and and this one:
" If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema . Maranatha." ( 1 Corinthians 16:22 ).

Right there, anyone who does not love Jesus Christ, is accursed, and God will have them cast into Hell.
I don't see anything "loving" or non-selective about that.

Gentlemen,

I don't think in terms of God being only love or even being in subjection to it.
To me, John 3:16 is but one of 31,101 "verses" in the entire Bible....
Some years ago, I took this idea that "God loves everyone" back to His word, and carefully examined how He treated differing men and groups of men.

After much study, I decided that He could not be loving towards all men, if He decided to throw anyone into Hell.
That is not a loving God, who would cast people that He loves and is not willing that they should perish, into everlasting punishment.

One in which the ones He loves "and tried to save" will be tormented with thirst, loneliness, pain, and regret for the rest of eternity.
That is not my God.

If you wish to believe in a god that loves everyone, even those who hate Him and will never love Him, then that is your right.
I cannot.
There are far too many things that he says, that convinces me otherwise.




I bid you a good evening.

 

You didn't ask us to address his wrath. You asked for biblical scripture that shows he made creation in love, that has been provided.

To address the wrath and coming judgement first you are making pagan-like attributes that God is subject to human emotions.

I think you need to first research the Immutability of God. And then the subset Impassibility of God.

James 1 17
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change

Hebrews 13
8Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.



You are told in scripture God is ANGRY, God gets Jealous, God can change his mind.

The authors had to use human terms so it could make better sense to you.


Exodus 32
14So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.

Do you really think God changed his mind? Scripture will even say God will walk to have a look.

God will remember and forget things. God will be SORRY for things he did.

Isaiah 55

8“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the LORD.

9“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways
And My thoughts than your thoughts.


The Impassibility of God, God does not suffer from emotions. Anger is a emotion WE get when we are frustrated for not having a solution or not been prepared for the particular outcome. God knows too much to ever get angry.

If God were subject to ANGER than ANGER itself is GOD therefore it is said SUBJECT to Anger.

Nothing motivates God he does the motivation.

God is not happy one day, sad another and angry later.

God is Love. Agape doesn't operate under a selfish motive to sate a hunger or satisfaction of a emotion. It is neither apathetic.

“When we wish to learn of the love and goodness of God by analogy—by imagining parallels to them in the realm of human relations—we turn of course to the parables of Christ. But when we try to conceive the reality as it may be in itself, we must beware lest we interpret ‘moral attributes’ in terms of mere conscientiousness or abstract benevolence. The mistake is easily made because we (correctly) deny that God has passions; and with us a love that is not passionate means a love that is something less. But the reason why God has no passions is that passions imply passivity and intermission. The passion of love is something that happens to us, as ‘getting wet’ happens to a body: and God is exempt from that ‘passion’ in the same way that water is exempt from ‘getting wet’. He cannot be affected with love, because He is love. To imagine that love as something less torrential or less sharp than our own temporary and derivative ‘passions’ is a most disastrous fantasy” ---Miracles, CS LEWIS.

 

Can you count the sand on the seashore?

Nope.

1 Kings 4:20 is factual. Both could not be measured.

 

I disagree.
He made it "good" ( Genesis 1:31 ).

In that very same psalm you used, He says this:
"The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy." ( Psalms 145:20 ).

Again, I'm not seeing this "love" you speak of, except being directed at those He has made righteous with the blood of His Son...those that love Him ( 1 John 4:19 ).

Not in the least.
To me, the pagan gods beg, borrow and steal from His perfect attributes...ones that man has warped in his thoughts.

God is angry...every day.
" God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry [with the wicked] every day." ( Psalms 7:11 )

" For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;" ( Romans 1:18 )

With that, I must take my leave of answering you further.
As in threads past, it appears to me that your God of "love" is not the same God that I worship...one that loves believers, and hates those that hate Him...unbelievers.

The God that I love, I not only respect greatly because of the power He wields, but because of who He chooses to have mercy and compassion on, and whom He does not ( Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:14-18 ).


I wish you well, sir.

 

I'm surprised you went with an answer like that. The sands of the sea shore would be trillions. Clearly God was using hyperbolic language unless you believe the population of Israel was the same. Seriously doubt it.

 

Indeed, as per instruction:
1Jn 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

 

Scripture is pretty straight forward:

Psalm 145
17The LORD is righteous in all His ways
And kind in all His deeds.

I understand how for some folks ALL doesn't mean ALL. Everything God does is done in Love.

""The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy."

Its the very nature of Love to destroy all wickedness. But if you ask a wicked person what that means it means God will chop our head off rather than have you repent.

"" For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;" "

Yes and the wrath is observable with any sinner from sin itself. A wicked person has the wrong idea that SIN is a perk paid for. In other words to the wicked the bad thing about sin is the punishment you might get out of it RATHER than SIN ITSELF being intrinsically a penalty.


Genesis 3

9Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, “Where are you?”

So was God clueless you think he didn't know where Adam was?

11And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?”

Again you think God didn't know? Scripture clearly states it. Or is there a possibility that its trying to explain by anthropomorphism?

 

God actively chose who would be saved, His elect, and chose to bypass all others, to allow them to remain in their sins...Active to save, passive in allowing the lost to keep remaining lost...

 

This is not hyperbolic. It is a simile. Surely you have heard of those right?

No, he did not say they were the same. He gave a simile. A comparison, not an equivalent. The only one being hyperbolic here is you.

 

This thread is terrifying.

Sent from my CLT-L04 using Tapatalk

 

I believe that you are predestined and that is according to the bible... Although, before you are predestined, you are foreknown... As the Bible says, "For whom he did foreknow" God predestined all those that was foreknown to him... Just as Jesus was the first born among many brethren, because he was preeminent... God also foreknew all those that he predestined, and He also called them... God knowing the beginning from the end, right? He foreknew all those that were to accept his calling, therefore He did predestined them to become the image of his first born Son... All first born children were boys, because the girls couldn't be considered as firstborn... If anything was inherited it was passed down through the male child...

First He Foreknew, then he predestined, then He called, next He justified and last He glorified... The question is, what did God foreknow? Everything, God knows all, nothing ever occurs to God... So God knew that you would accept His first born Son, therefore He predestined and called you to be justified by the Blood of the lamb and then set in high places with Christ, glorified... If you are of Christ, you sit with him on his thrown, glorified... Sometimes we don't feel glorified, but that is not God's fault, it is our little faith...

 

Genesis 3

9Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, “Where are you?”

So was God clueless you think he didn't know where Adam was?

11And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?”

Again you think God didn't know? Scripture clearly states it. Or is there a possibility that its trying to explain by anthropomorphism?[/QUOTE]

Jesus says today to every man that has lost his way, "where are you"? How did you get in the condition of being without a covering? Well, if we're not covered by the blood today, we are uncovered and lost... We are naked, and we are partaking of the forbidden fruit, instead of coming to the knowledge of the truth...

 

I'd suggest you've bypassed however the deeper study you should have done about God using this analogy. He knew his fellow Jews already had learned about the Potter analogy from the home base of it's usage in Jeremiah 18 where the clay was given the choice....to obey and thus not be destroyed or to rebel and be judged. The choice was theirs not God's. Calvinists however don't look at the bigger picture of what God said the analogy entails. We see it demonstrated here,

Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them. Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good. And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart. Jer 18:5,12

Much to be seen there but for the very fact that it states he was willing to change the judgement that he decided would be brought upon them signifies they had the free will choice to change and could have done so. If not than what would you have? God being double minded thinking something was good to start but changing his mind.

 

Double predestination as you describe it would seem to be affirming though that God was direct cause of the lost sinner sin hell, as he determined and directly caused them to get there!
Bible seems to state though that God has chosen out of reprobate fallen humanity to directly determine and predestine to election in Christ His own, but not active in same sense as dealing with the lost!

 

Based on what?