DRINKING ALCOHOL?

I don't mean to interject here, but maybe somebody here can shed some light on this passage. I've posted it before, and nobody (to my knowledge) ever addressed it. With the conflict about whether or not the wine Jesus made from water contained alcohol or not, can anyone say that the wine mentioned in this verses is not alcoholic in content?:

"6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined."
Isaiah 25:6 (KJV)

Since "the lees" are the end result/by-product of fermentation, and since this verse prophetically states that the Lord Himself will serve us such wines at the Marriage Supper of The Lamb (the topic of the passage this verse is a part of)- how can we interpret this verse to be saying anything except that God Himself will one day serve wine with an alcohol content to his children?

Every commentary I've ever seen either acknowledges that this is speaking of alcoholic wine or simply ignores the ramification altogether. None has ever denied that the wine in question would contain alcohol.

 

If we are going to interpret it according to modern
theological thought, we can make the Scriptures
say whatever we want it to, according to our
prejudices; however, the seder is always served
with wine. While I do not drink wine (although I had
about a tablespoon of wine at my bat mitzvah and
tried some twice since then -- even less!), I cannot
back this biblically. The taste is simply intollerable
to me, and I have health issues.

Regardless of this, I think that in our day, with so
much alcohol abuse going on, people have a good
reason to stand against it; they just haven't a
biblical reason.

One must remember, however, that while the Bible
calls the nations with wine blessed, it denounces
drunkenness.

 

(I just noticed that you are from Tehachapi! I've
always wanted to visit there -- no reason, really --
just wanted to see it -- probably for the same
reason I drove to Mexico, Missouri!

 

Giving strong drink to someone perishing as medicine is OK although we have much better things today. That's the sole purpose of it! I'm not sure that's what you meant when you said "not just getting someone drunk is wrong." You can clarify your own heart though.

 

Would Smoky (or anyone else) care to comment on this?

 

That's just plain sick! In stead of continuing to share the Lord with someone who refuses Christ, just give them a fifth of liquor! Wow!

 

Smoky,

You pick the one controversial statement to respond to. How about the ten or so other great responses?

 

Larry, I don't believe "wine on the lees well refined" refers to alcoholic wine.I'll write more later but "well refined" is defined in Strongs as:

zaqaq, zaw-kak'; a primitive root; to strain, (figurative) extract, clarify :- fine, pour down, purge, purify, refine.

This could define grape juice.

 

Do we have an actual practicing Winemaker on-board?

This is more than likely un-fermented Grape Juice.

Why? Because, the very process of fermenting the wine will turn it to vinegar if it is *left* on the lees.

The emptying from vessel to vessel *was* the refining process.

Even today some vintners age their wines on the racks. That is they have racks that hold the bottles neck down so any sediment (lees) will settle out.

Then periodically they 'crack' the cork just enough to let enough wine out to flush the sediments out.

If this process is not done, then:

Neither the wine nor the bottle is fit for anything but breaking.

Now, having said that...

There is no indication of how long this 'refining' process was to be allowed to go on before it is to be presented on the mountain of the Lord...

You can make up your own minds on that score...

But, consider this...

To be well refined, *all* the sediments have to be settled out and removed. This takes time. And, time means fermentation.

The actual injunction is to be not 'drunk'. It does not say we should be soured face always serious people. We *are* allowed to be merry.

But, we have to let our moderation be made known to all men.

In this respect, we meet up with the two-edged sword of Christian Liberty...

Is it possible in most circles to have a glass of wine or single beer and not be thought of as condoning *all* that goes along with that 'product' group.

I think not.

 

Here is what some actual winemakers say about producing "wines on the lees":

1. "According to Lavigne-Cruege and Dubourdieu (2001), great white wines can only be produced with a prolonged period on the lees."

2. "Without being drawn off, this ''barrique de noce'' (wedding barrel) gave a particular character to the wine : these wines were fresher in the mouth with a fuller bouquet."
"The method consist in the wines resting on their fine lees from winter to spring. During this maturing, the lees mostly release amino-acids : it is the autolysis process. The compounds released react with other molecules and produce a very rich sapid flavour and compounds. Not being drawn off, the wines keep all their freshness thanks to the carbonic gas appeared during the alcoholic fermentation."

3. "Next, the wines are aged on their "lees," the residue of dead yeasts left over from the second fermentation, giving them a more complex flavor."
"The time "on the lees" .... is one part of the quality of Champagne."

4. "Sur Lee Aging: French for “aging on the lees." After fermentation, dead yeast cells and wine solids settle on the bottom of the barrel, these are known as Lees. Aging on the lees can increase the wines complexity, richness and creaminess."

5. "Otard gives pride of place to distillation on the lees (including the natural yeasts contained in the wine) in order to obtain different aromas and a distinctive bouquet."

6. "But it (wine) will improve significantly if it is left on the lees for two, three or even four years."

7. "Chardonnay grapes from our oldest vines were used in our Special Reserve Chardonnay. It was barrel fermented in new French oak and aged there on the lees for fourteen months."

8. "We now need the taste. This comes from leaving the wine to mature. The yeast dies, and settles on to the side of the bottle. In time it starts to decompose in a process known as autolysis. This produces the earthy flavour which is the essential character of this type of wine. The longer the wine is left on its lees the better as the process only really starts after about 9 months. Our 1992 vintage was left on the lees for three years, which is the longest we have left a wine for yet (and longer than most other sparklers of its type). The wine now has its taste!"

9. "Made in the traditional method, this sparkling wine has been aged on the lees for a minimum of 3 years. We use 100% Cayuga grapes, gently pressed immediately upon harvest to produce this very unique sparkling wine. The result is a bouquet of green apples carried through in the small persistent bubbles."

10. "With our dry white wine, Les Terres Blanches, we wanted to produce a wine with a taste of the soil, with floral and mineral characteristics, different from the light, lively “generic” wines of Gascony.
The fact that it is matured on the lees over 10 months, part of which in large wooden casks, and the high proportion of Gros Manseng, a structuring grape, give it more body in your mouth and mean it can be kept for longer."


These are several examples I quickly found on the web of actual winemakers describing how they produce "wines on the lees". Contrary to what some here seem to be saying, wine left on the lees doesn't seem to result in vinegar.

 

Smoky,

Please re-read the verse. The critical statement in this verse is "wines on the lees". "The lees" are the by-product/after-effect of the process of fermentation. There can be no such thing as "grape-juice on the lees"; it's an oxymoron.

I have to believe this verse for what it says. If I don't happen to like what it says necessarily, I'd have to chalk that up to my Baptist heritage that has tried for the past century to change the Biblical injunction of "moderation", to one of "prohibition".

 

Hello Deceit,

I'm afraid your not going to find anything in Isaiah 25:6 to support drinking.
LarryN said:

"The lees" in this verse are not the end result by-product of fermentation, but instead refer to a filtering process that separates the fermentation causing albumen found in the lining of the grape skin and grape seeds from the grape sugar or glucose. "Wine on the lees" is just one word in the Hebrew and isn't the normal word "yayin", but the word "shemer" and refers to the vintage produce of the grape, filtered away from the juice when trying to prevent fermentation. If you delay the filtration process, fermentation sets in and causes alcoholic wine with the leftover "dregs". The vintage produce (shemer) left over after straining away the juice was often used to make preserves or jellies and that's one meaning Strong gives to the word along with the dregs left over from alcoholic wine:
shemer, from Hebrew 8104 (shamar); something preserved, i.e. the settlings (plural only) of wine dregs, (wines on the) lees.
"Well refined" translates the Hebrew "zazaq" and means to strain or purify:
zaqaq, zaw-kak'; a primitive root; to strain, (figurative) extract, clarify :- fine, pour down, purge, purify, refine.
This process of filtration and preservation was well known in ancient times. It was an additional way of preserving grape juice from fermentation besides boiling and pasteurization. An agriculturalist named Columella, living in the first century AD wrote extensivelly about it in his "On Agriculture and Trees". Along with instructions on how to preserve other fruits, he gave instructions on how to prevent fermentation of gently pressed grape juice or juice falling down by itself before being pressed. He said, " That the must may remain always as sweet as though it were fresh, do as follows. Before the grape-skins are put under the press, take from the vat some of the freshest possible must and put it in a new wine-jar; then daub it over and cover it carefully with pitch that thus no water may be able to get in. Then sink the whole flagon in a pool of cold, fresh water so that no part of it is above the surface. Then after forty days take it out of the water. The must will then keep sweet for as much as a year." The Roman poet Virgil (70-19 B.C ) mentions another method of filtration using a cloth bag. He points out that the purpose was to remove the fermentable substances from the juice. He stated, " Wines are most beneficial when all their potency has been overcome by the strainer." (Virgil, Georgics)The first century biographer Plutarch stated, "Wine is rendered old, or feeble of strength, when it is frequenntly filtered. The strength being thus excluded, the wine neither inflames the brain nor infests the mind and passions, and is much more pleasant to drink".(Pllutarch, Symposiacs) Pliny also stated that the purpose of the strainer was to remove the fermentable substances which give alcoholic potency to the wine.(Pliny, Natural History) Now this "good wine", which Plutarch described as "much more pleasant to drink" was the very wine our Lord changed from the water at the feast of Cana!
Now, to give you some evidence that "oinos" refers to grape juice as well as intoxicating wine, I refer you to
Aristotles "Metereologica". He speaks of unfermented grape juice (glukus), saying: "though called wine [oinos], it has not the effect of wine, for it does not taste like wine and does not intoxicate like ordinary wine."5 In this text Aristotle explicitly informs us that unfermented grape juice was called "oinos—wine," though it did not have the taste or the intoxicating effect of ordinary wine. Aristotle, Metereologica 388. b. 9-13.
Also, A Grammarian living about AD 200 named Athenaeus speaks of a type of grape juice where the fermentable power of the wine had been removed calling it sweet wine (oinos) and did not make the head heavy.Athenaeus, Banquet 1, 54. Now I'll refer you to word "tiyrowsh" strong's definition: " from Hebrew 3423 (yarash) in the sense of expulsion; must or fresh grape-juice (as just squeezed out); by implication (rarely) fermented wine :- (new, sweet) wine. Although rarely meaning new wine beginning to ferment, it refers mainly to the expulsion or the fresh grape-juice just squeezed out, the juice still in the cluster or to the grapes themselves.
Isaiah 65:8 (ESV)
Thus says the Lord:
"As the new wine is found in the cluster,
and they say, 'Do not destroy it,
for there is a blessing in it,'
so I will do for my servants' sake,
and not destroy them all.
Here the juice is still in the cluster.

Micah 6:15 (ESV)
You shall sow, but not reap;
you shall tread olives, but not anoint yourselves with oil;
you shall tread grapes, but not drink wine.
Here the grapes themselves are translated tirosh.

To show that oinos can also mean grape juice can be determined by the way it is tranlsated in the Greek Septuagint translation of the Old Testament. Many times tiyrowsh is translated oinos, showing it also means grape juice.

In the Old Testament, the word for wine is used in it's good sense when it was used to represent the blessings of material prosperity (Gen 27:28; 49:10-11; Deut 33:28), of the messianic age (Joel 2:18-19; Jer 31:10-12; Amos 9:13, 14), of God's saving grace (Is 55:1),the joy offered by God to His people (Ps 104:14-15; 4:7), and the use of grape juice as tithe, offerings and libations (Num 18:12; Deut 14:23; Ex 29:40; Lev 23:13).

When used in it's bad sense, it represents devine wrath, immorality and apostasy (Is 19:14; Rev 14:10; 16:19; 17:2; 18:3). The Bible condemns it in a number of ways. Sometimes the outright use of it (Prov 23:29-35; 20:1; Hab 2:5; Eph 5:18). Solomon admonishes to refrain from even looking at wine in order to avoid the shame and suffering caused by it (Prov 23:31). He goes on to describe its deadly nature by comparing it to the poisonous bite of a serpent and the sting of an adder (Prov 23:32).Other texts explain the moral consequences of the use of alcoholic beverages. They distort the perception of reality (Is 28:7; Prov 23:33); impair the capacity to make responsible decisions (Lev 10:9-11); weaken moral sensitivities and inhibitions (Gen 9:21; 19:32; Hab 2:15; Is 5:11-12); and cause physical sickness (Prov 23:20-21; Hos 7:5; Is 19:14; Ps 60:3); and disqualify for both civil and religious service (Prov 31:4-5; Lev 10:9-11; Ezek 44:23; 1 Tim 3:2-3; Titus 1:7-8).

[ November 18, 2003, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: Smoky ]

 

My goodness, we can't even agree on the millenia-old meaning of the term "the lees". Please see my post above for quotes from various winemakers using the term in the present day usage. The meaning hasn't changed over time.

Your reference to a filtering process refers to what's known as "racking" the wine.

Since when can we alter the meaning of terms used in the Bible to suit our preconceived notions?