Elect does not mean "saved at birth"

Canadyjd

If there was a clear teaching of irresistible Grace in scripture I'm sure you would have been more than happy to show it to us. Since you didn't it proves there is no such teaching in scripture.

I don't believe that Christ was trying to give such an explanation for that purpose. When He warned many to be on there toes and keep the faith. Sheep go astray all the time they always have and they still do.

Gal 2:16 said what I was trying to relate to you John 3:17 backs it up. Of course I'm not the only one who understands some of the same things in the Bible the same way. What makes you think you have such a great understanding? Or better what makes you think you have greater understanding?

Why thankyou, I am bold with the truth and why should I be?. I have noticed your critque of me. Why do you judge me is it because I don't believe what you believe?
MB

 

My understanding isn't of the so called doctrines of Grace I couldn't disagree more with them. I believe them to be false.

If election is unalterably to Salvation, it is Salvation it self.
MB

 

If God created man knowing that they would unalterably sin, then man was always meant to be sinful and God created him that way.

Gotta watch your reasoning and where it takes you.

 

Again, you are factually incorrect. Gal. 2:16 does not say all there is to say about salvation. It may say all you want to hear about salvation, but it does not say all there is to say. And if you believe it says all there is to say, why quote a verse from Eph?

If you read the verses in context, you will find the truth. Eph. 1:4 "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love,(5) He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will.(6) to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. (7) In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, (8) which He lavished upon us. In all wisdom and insight (9) He made known to us the mystery of His will according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him.....(11)also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will.....(13) In whom, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation, having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise (14) who is given as a pledge of our inheritance with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

So, in context, we see that God, according to the kind intention of His will (emphasized three times) and the riches of His grace (emphasized twice):

chose us before the foundation of the world----predestined us----freely bestowed His grace upon us----gave us redemption----forgave us----lavished His grace upon us----made known to us the mystery of His will----gave us the inheritance we were predestined for----

Paul then tells the Ephesians how they appropriated these same promises...they listened to the gospel, they believed, they were given the indwelling Holy Spirit as the pledge promise of the truth of the inheritance.

You cannot ignore the previous 10 verses or so from the context of verse 13. God's work of salvation among the Eph. was the same as with Paul. Paul focuses on God's will, God's plan, God's grace, God's chosing and the presdestination of His children to salvation. No where does Paul focus on the "free-will" of men. It is all about God and God's plan. It is about God acting according to His purpose and His will.

I have always acknowledged the necessity of the gospel and faith in Jesus in God's plan to bring about the redemption of His people. But "listen", "believe" "sealed", doesn't say everything about what God has revealed about salvation. You must try to understand those preceding verses along with v.13.

You are, once again, incorrect. I "dug it out" of scripture only with the help of Holy Spirit.

Verses 37-38 do not mean He is "offering them a chance to reconsider". He is telling them a fact that they should believe based on the "works" or miracles that He has done. These miracles are signs that testify or bear witness to the truth of who He is. That doesn't change what He said in v.26 "you do not believe because you are not of My sheep." That too, is a truth He has revealed to them.

That is not what the words of the text say. The text says that His sheep will hear and will follow Him.

Yes it does. Jesus says "I know them". The "know" is a present, active, indicative verb. It is a fact at the time Jesus says it. But He also says, "My sheep hear My voice". The "hear" is a future, active, indicative. It means it is a fact that they will hear at some time in the future.

So you have Jesus, in the "present" of that time, saying He "knows" His sheep (as a fact) and they will at some time in the future (as a fact) hear His voice and will follow Him. He knows them before they hear. That is exactly what the verses mean. These are the same sheep that the Father has given to Him, and that He will give eternal life, and they will never perish.

peace to youraying:

 

I have yet to meet the man who isn't sinful. There is none righteous, not one. Rom. 3:10 says so. So Paul should have watched his reasoning.
MB

 

Then you have missed the meaning of the passage.

It isn't about me or you having "greater understanding". It is about having the proper understanding of the words of scripture in the context they were written.

Consider what you just said. When given the context of the passage concerning the sheep hearing their master's voice and only following their master's voice, you simply dismiss it with "I don't believe that Christ was trying to give such an explanation....." You do not even attempt to explain why Jesus used the analogy He used.

He doesn't say anything in that passage about "keeping the faith" or "sheep going astray". He could have used those words had He chosen to do so. That is not what He was attempting to teach us. Just because you "don't believe that was the explanation Jesus was trying to give...." doesn't mean a thing.

You should have engaged the passage, wrestled with the words and phrases, demonstrated you had given it a great amount of thought, shown you had considered it in context. Perhaps you could then articulate a reasonable explanation for why Jesus used the words He used that is different from what has been stated. Perhaps you would even be able to explain why that interpretation is better than what has already been stated.

I don't judge you at all. I make the observation that your audacity far outweighs your understanding. You have repeatedly demonstrated that fact in your posts, as I have just explained to you above.

I apologize for being too candid at times.

peace to youraying:

 

Wow, the flight path of that post was at least 40,000 ft over your head, I guess.

 

So did I. Once. Until I went to the Bible and studied it closely. I did not go to any election teacher. I listened to Doctrine of Grace preachers, yes, with the Bible open in front of me, with the aim in view of proving to myself that the Doctrine of Grace is from hell, false, devilish, devious, and definitely anti Christ.

Same thing happened to me when I first heard the preaching of the cross. I walked into this Baptist church, a full blown atheist and revolutionary, with the aim of standing up in the middle of the services, and engaging the preacher in a debate right there in front of his congregation, proving there was no God using Marx and Engel's Dialectical Materialism.

Both times I walked away with my head hung low before my Savior.

 

You left out the JUSTIFICATION context this time so let me add it: "In whom we also trusted, after that we heard the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation: in whom also after that we believed, we were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, the EARNEST [proof] of our redemption..." See, YOU left out a critical verse yourself. It was embarrassing to find it there, wasn't it? 12) That we should be to the praise of His glory who FIRST TRUSTED CHRIST. We had to trust Christ BEFORE all this sanctification could be fulfilled. So, yeah, the passages are chronogically reversed --- Paul spoke of their sanctification before speaking to their justification. And I think you would agree that no one participates in the sanctification until they trust Jesus.

THEN comes the SANCTIFICATION context: He chose us before the foundation of the world (=) predestined us----freely bestowed His grace upon us----gave us redemption----forgave us----lavished His grace upon us----made known to us the mystery of His will----gave us the inheritance we were predestined for----

Yeah, that's what I just said. Notice they received the regeneration AFTER they heard and believed.

Wasn't trying to. They deal with SANCTIFICATION though and we all know that CAlvinism/Reform see that part very clearly.

I beg your pardon. We just showed that Eph 1:12-14 dealt with men's "free will" choice to hear and believe and that this was required before men could be indwelt, lavish His grace on us, make known the mystery of His will (key because you can't know mysteries until you are regenerated), gave inheritance, adopted us, gave us spiritual gifts, etc. It's all part of the "sanctification package" we receive when we trust in Him.

He said "You DO not believe." What tense is that verb, canady??? PRESENT tense. In the future, maybe the next moment, they would believe upon hearing new evidence -- which He then gives them!

Yeah, even the ones who reject Him now may one day hear. Did you receive Him the first time you heard Him?

Yes, he does. Probably even a couple there in front of Him He knew would become sheep. What's the point?

The point is that God foreknows who will believe but it is only when they believe that they become His sheep guided in and out by His predestinated plan for "How to Raise Sheep" (a gripping operations manual!).

skypair

 

It wasn't embarrassing at all, and I left out verse 12 because I didn't want to "pile on". But, let's look at it in context: (v.11)also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will (v.12)to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ should be to the praise of His glory)

Paul is not saying He had to first trust Christ before God would predestinate Him according to His purpose..... That just doesn't make sense.

Paul is saying that God's purpose in the predestination of Paul and the others who were "the first to hope in Christ" was to the end of God's own glory. He then says in verse 13 that same purpose of predestination applies to the Ephesians.

I don't find the words "justification" or "sanctification" in any of these verses. You aren't using these words the way Paul used them in His writings anyway.

Those verses are not speaking of sanctification. They are speaking of God's plan of chosing, predestinating, and lavishing His grace upon His children according to His will. You are trying to make them mean something they do not.

You "showed" no such thing. Once again, there is no mention of men's "free-will" in these verses, but Paul mentions God's will several times in the context of chosing, predestination, grace. I notice you continue to ignore that fact in favor of what you want to believe, rather than what the text actually says.

peace to youraying:

 

John 10:26, in the Greek, the "do not believe" is "ou pisteuete": It is a Future, active, indicative verb; It means, as a fact (not a possibility) they will not believe at anytime in the future.

The "are not" in "are not My Sheep" is " ouk este" in the Greek. A present, active, indicative verb. As a fact, they are not His sheep in the present.

Taken together, in context, it means they (as a fact, not just a possibility) are not His sheep at the time Jesus spoke the words, and, as a fact (not a possibility) they will not believe at anytime in the future precisely because they are not His sheep.

You have misunderstood the passage. There is no "foreknow" in the passage. The word "know", in John 10:27 refers to a relationship, not information. Jesus knows them in the relationship of a Good Shepherd and His sheep at that very moment. Because they are His sheep, they will hear (as a fact, not a possibility) His voice and they will follow(as a fact, not a possibility) Him.

Anything else simply cannot be supported by an intellectually honest reading of the text.

peace to youraying:

 

Here again we see that we are predestined to purpose, not to salvation. And we see further that we cannot know what that purpose is -- His PURPOSE in "after the cousel of His will --- but reading the next line, we CAN know that we have trusted Him and are thereby saved.

My above comments ought to make sense out of this conundrum you seem to have. First we trust Him -- then He begins to work His purposes in our lives.

No, the "purposes" were hidden in "the counsel of His will." It was this counsel that would be to His glory. Remember?

I recognize them from other scriptures like Phil 1:6, 3:21, from all of Rom 5-8, etc. Basically, I believe that you (nor Calvinists) can make the distinctin between the 2 being as 1) y'all can't distinguish between soul and spirit and 2) you are unaware of how salvation takes place within a person (seeing you have the regeneration before the belief, for instance.).

In scripture and in this passage, justification of their souls is described in 1:12-14 -- we FIRST trust Christ after we hear - believe - are sealed. That's what makes 1:12 the key verse.

Before that Paul spoke of their sanctification of their spirits. And it is wonderful the inhritance we have been predestined to as children of God! We have been "translated" or "given" into the kingdom of Christ through justification ("trust in Him") to receive our predestined purpose in God's plan.

You just missed it, canady. Yes, it speaks of God "choosing, predestining,..." but only choosing those who trust Him, those who are born again. (1:12)

Sure there is! Does man do the believing or does God? We know God believes and we know that if man doesn't believe, he is condemned to hell. Here, 1:!3, we can know that, upon hearing, if he does believe out of his own free will, he will be "sealed" by the Holy Spirit. How does he come to believe? As a choice between believing and not believing -- simple as that.

I know that you don't want to "discover" that as a free will choice. It may even bring your own salvation into question if true, right? You're pluggin along trying to sanctify yourself and you find out all of a sudden that your soul is not justified. Hey, canady. Wake up and smell the coffee! Calvinism could be as much of a cult as they beleive the Catholics are! What do YOU suppose "name that liveth but art dead" means in Rev 3:1? Reformed but not reborn maybe?

skypair

 

You are changing the text, again. We are predestined "according" to His purpose, not "to" a purpose (v.11) "we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will". What are we predestined for? To obtain an inheritance. Why do we obtain an inheritance? Because it is according to God's purpose, and God works all things after the counsel of His will. Is the salvation of men part of "all things". Certainly it must be. All means all, right?

Paul told us clearly what the purpose was; to obtain an inheritance. The focus of v.12 is that the "counsel of His will" from v.11 has resulted in those who first hoped in Christ would be to the "praise of His glory". Not of ourselves.

I have no conundrum, and your comments change scripture, literally by changing some words and changing the meaning of others. It makes sense only in your own mind.

That is a complete distortion of the passage. Our "trusting" is His work, His purpose, His will. God works in our lives, and we responded. Paul says we are "chosen before the foundation of the world", "predestined" according to His purpose, that God lavished His grace (unmerited favor) upon us. All of these things happened before we ever heard, before we ever trusted. That is the point of the passage. God didn't respond to us, we responded to God. That is clearly what the passage says.

The word "hidden" is not in the text. These verses are revealing the very purpose and will of God in the salvation of men. You are trying to make it mean the opposite of what it plainly says.

peace to youraying:

 

Will you stop already with the "changing" critique. What does it matter whether I make my analysis in the text or outside the text. What makes it any easier that you explain outside or I put brackets around what I believe is the meaning. I am not changing the text anymore than Paul does when he adds parentheses to his original words.

His purpose for who? FOR THOSE WHO TRUST in Him. What purpose? "To obtain an inheritance." If you are going to bring up the issue of inheritance, you're gonna have to answer who it is for. It's not for unbelievers, is it? It's not for the "world," is it?

No, you're missing something and I think you know it. God is not "doling out" the inheritance to unbelievers and Christ-rejectors is He. You ask why do WE obtain and inheritance" and you ignore the issue of why everyone doesn't get that same inheritance.

skypair

 

If you will stop changing the words in the passage, I will stop pointing out that you are changing the words of the passage.

Because one is changing God's Word. The other simply reveals your misunderstanding of God's Word.

Again, you appear to think quite highly of yourself, just like when you assumed my disagreeing with you would cause God to infer I am blaspheming Holy Spirit. You are not the Apostle Paul. Your words do not have the authority of the Apostle Paul.

That is not what the text says. His "purpose" is for those He "chose before the foundation of the world" and "predestinated to adoption as sons"

Yes, to obtain an inheritance. God chose us before the foundation of the world, and predestined us to obtain an inheritance.

As the text says, the inheritance is for those God chose and predestined, according to the kind intention of HIS WILL; not our will.

The reason everyone doesn't get that same inheritance is because God did not chose everyone to get that inheritance. He gets to make those kind of choices because He is God.

peace to youraying:

 

SP , how dare you tell Canadyjd he has no relationship with God ! You are out of control .

 

Why discuss another passage of scripture when you continue to ignore the meaning of the very words of the text we have already addressed?

I have shown you the meaning of John 10:26-30. I answered your every misunderstanding with direct reference to the actual meaning of the words in the text. You dismissed it as a "wonder of Calvinism" that only the "enlightened" could understand.

I have shown you the context and meaning of the words in Eph 1. You have demanded to put your own words in place of God's Word (to help my understaning ), comparing yourself to the Apostle Paul while doing so.

I don't need a lecture from you concerning how I "got the wrong understaning" of any passage of scripture. You very words plainly show why you continue to be in such amazing error.

My "theology" does not deny any of God's attributes. My "theology" seeks only to understand the meaning scripture in the context it was written. I make every attempt not to bring preconceived ideas to the text

You have suggested that for me to disagree with your words might cause Almighty God to infer that I am blaspheming Holy Spirit. You have compared yourself to the Apostle Paul. You have called me "swine" not fit to throw your "pearls" before.

Now you say that you know I do not have a relationship with God.

I leave you, sir, to swim in the sea of your own self-deception.

peace to youraying: