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Election

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by wwr 82, Dec 26, 2005.

  1. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    Almost every time in the NT the mention of 'the elect' is made, it is referring to the Jews. Here:
    http://host380.ipowerweb.com/~setterfi/elect.htm

    I wrote this about a year ago in response to a challenge here on BB. My husband put it up on hiw website.

    In the meantime, on the subject of the condition of the unredeemed, I just finished this post in another thread. Here is the post itself:

    --------

    James wrote "to the twelve tribes scattered among the nations" (which, by the way, indicates that none of the tribes was 'lost'). This means his letter was not exclusively to believers, to say the least! So, knowing that he is not writing to believers, let's look at a good part of chapter 4, because it strongly indicates that, fallen state or not, men certainly have a choice, a totally free will, about which path they will choose to follow in life:

    What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come from your desires that battle within you? You want something, but don't get it it. You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God. When you ask, you do not receive because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.

    You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
    [Note: the person may CHOOSE to become an enemy of the world, which means he may not have been in childhood, at least. He also BECOMES an enemy of God, indicating a change in status from not being an enemy of God. This is something Paul also indicates in Romans 7:7-11. It is a strong indication that although children are born with sin natures they are not yet enemies of God and not yet spiritually dead.] Or do you think Scripture says without reason that the spirit he caused to live in us envies intensely? [alternate translations of this verse: 'that God jealously longs for the spirit that he made to live in us' or 'that the Spirit he caused to live in us longs jealously'] But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says:

    'God opposes the proud
    but gives grace to the humble.'

    Submit yourselves, then, to God. resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Come near to God and he will come hear to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter into mourning and your joy to gloom. Humble yoursleves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.


    Remember that when God was speaking to Noah in Genesis 9:21, He says the hearts of all men always TEND or INCLINE toward evil from their YOUTH (not necessarily babyhood or childhood!) Tending toward something does not mean the heart is going to inevitably choose the wrong. It will often struggle, even in its unredeemed state, to choose the right, but for the wrong reasons (self-aggrandizement, public acclaim, etc.). Nevertheless the unredeemed heart is very aware of the difference between good and evil and often struggles to choose what is seen to be good. This is a clear indication that the proposals of Calvinism are wrong. If they were not wrong, then ONLY the redeemed would be working in hospitals, or volunteers in disasters, etc. Either that or it is wrong to be either....

    Man has totally free will in his fallen state. Although he cannot achieve what is right and good himself, he can choose to want it. James tells the unredeemed above to purify their hearts! He tells them to humble themselves before God, to draw near to Him. Thus, these are things even an unredeemed person can do.
     
  2. Timtoolman

    Timtoolman New Member

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    Good post Helen, enjoyed this different light on the subject.
     
  3. Robert J Hutton

    Robert J Hutton New Member

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    RE: The reply put on the thread by webdog: is this the "corporate election" view? I am interested in that and would like to know more as it may answer the difficult questions we have all faced on the issue of election.

    Kind regards to all.

    Bob
     
  4. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    The Apostle Paul in his letter to the church at Rome clearly defines the sovereignty of God in salvation:

    Romans 1:16, KJV
    16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


    The sovereignty of God in the salvation of the elect is demonstrated as follows.

    1. It is God the Father who foreknew and chose His people before the foundation of the world

    Ephesians 1:3-7, KJV
    3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
    4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
    5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
    6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
    7. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;


    2. It is God the Father who predestinated that His people would be conformed to the image of His Son that they might be adopted as His children and become heirs and joint heirs with Jesus Christ.

    Romans 8:28-30, KJV
    28. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
    29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


    Romans 8:14-17, KJV
    14. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
    15. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.16. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
    17. And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.



    3. It is God the Son who humbles Himself, take upon Himself the form of man, Jesus Christ, and sheds His blood on a Roman cross to pay the penalty for the sins of those whom the Father has chosen to salvation.

    Philippians 2:6-8, KJV
    6. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
    8. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.


    Revelation 1:5, KJV
    5. And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,


    Revelation 5:9, KJV
    9. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;


    1 Peter 1:18,19, KJV
    18. Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
    19. But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:


    4. It is God the Holy Spirit, who applies the work of the Jesus Christ to those chosen by God unto salvation so that none are lost.

    John 16:13-15, KJV
    13. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
    14. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
    15. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

    Ephesians 2:1-8, KJV
    1. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
    2. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
    3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
    4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
    5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
    6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
    7. That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
    8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:[/i]

    Summarizing:

    It is God the Father who foreknew and chose His people before the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:4].

    It is God the Father who predestinated that His people would be conformed to the image of His Son that they might be adopted as His children [Ephesians 1: 5] and become heirs and joint heirs with Jesus Christ [Romans 8: 16, 17].

    It is God the Son who humbles Himself, take upon Himself the form of man, Jesus Christ, and sheds His blood on a Roman cross to pay the penalty for the sins of those whom the Father has chosen to salvation [John 17; Philippians 2:6-10].

    It is God the Holy Spirit, who applies the work of the Jesus Christ to those chosen by God unto salvation so that none are lost [John 6: 37, 39, 40, 44].

    It is the Triune God who, in time, will regenerate, call, justify, and glorify those whom He chose to Salvation before the foundation of the world, therefore, they can never fall away or lose that Salvation.


    Romans 8:28-30, KJV
    28. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
    29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


    The Holy Scriptures from the first words in the book of Genesis, In the beginning God created to the last words in the book of Revelation, The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you all. Amen, are a testimony to the sovereignty of God. By sovereignty is meant, not simply the omnipotence of God, but the exercise of that omnipotence in the governing of all things. Similarly, from the shedding of blood to provide a covering for the nakedness of Adam and Eve, to the birth of Jesus Christ - God the Son, His death and resurrection, and finally to the declaration of His return in power and glory, Scripture clearly declares the sovereignty of God in salvation. God not only takes the initiative in salvation but completes that good work.

    Philippians 1:6, KJV
    6. Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:
     
  5. 4His_glory

    4His_glory New Member

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    Great post old regular! [​IMG]
     
  6. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    That is it...corporate election. There is no thing as individual election not "in Christ" or unconditionally. There is a condition...believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you WILL be saved.
     
  7. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    How would they be saved?
     
  8. Hardsheller

    Hardsheller Active Member
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    Please elaborate further, I'd like to hear all opinions on this subject. This is a controversial subject with a vast array of sentiment. I did order a book last night-"Chosen by God" by R.C. Sproul. Hopefully this will give me a better understanding on this subject. I did the best thing though on Monday night when I asked God to grant me wisdom and help me to understand this idea more fully. I guess if he thinks I'm ready, or if I really need to know he'll enlighten me. </font>[/QUOTE]Good Choice. You'll find the book to be enlightening. R.C. Sproul is a good teacher and a good writer. Another good book of his is Willing to Believe.
     
  9. bjonson

    bjonson New Member

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    Hello wwr82,

    I wanted to encourage you in this pursuit. Here are a few thoughts on election:

    1. The Bible speaks clearly on this doctrine.

    This is important. Some people want to think the doctrine of election is mysterious and therefore it is impossible to be dogmatic. I disagree. There are hundreds of passages that deal with election all through the Bible, and they are consistent in their position.

    2. Human pride will get in the way.

    I'm not accusing you of this; quite the contrary. However, there are people who will simply refuse to accept that God has the freedom to choose some for salvation before the foundation of the world. Regardless how many scriptures they see, they won't accept it. It is the most pride-crushing truth there is. God chose to hate Esau and love Jacob before they were born and had done either good or bad, as Romans 9 says. Also, consider what the crowed did to Jesus in Luke 4 when He taught that God chose the widow and the leper...(Luke 4:16-30)

    Finally, I think this is excellent from Nelson's Illustrated Bible dictionary:

    ELECTION — the gracious and free act of God by which He calls those who become part of His kingdom and special beneficiaries of His love and blessings. The Bible describes the concept of election in three distinct ways. Election sometimes refers to the choice of Israel and the church as a people for special service and privileges. Election may also refer to the choice of a specific individual to some office or to perform some special service. Still other passages of the Bible refer to the election of individuals to be children of God and heirs of eternal life.
    Throughout the history of redemption, election has characterized God’s saving activity. He chose and called Abraham from Ur to Canaan, making an everlasting covenant with him and his offspring (Gen. 11:31–12:7; Neh. 9:7; Is. 41:8). God also called Moses to lead His people out of bondage (Ex. 2:24–3:10; Deut. 6:21–23; Ps. 105). He chose Israel from among the nations of the world to be His special covenant people (Deut. 4:37; 7:6–7; Is. 44:1–2).
    Election to salvation takes place “in Christ” (Eph. 1:4; 2:10) as a part of God’s purpose for the human race. As part of His eternal plan, God allows us to use our freedom to rebel against Him. Thus it is gracious of God to save those who find salvation through Jesus Christ. It is not unjust of Him not to save everyone, since no one deserves to be saved (Matt. 20:14; Rom. 1:18; 9:15). Election is gracious; it is also unconditional and unmerited (Acts 13:48; Rom. 9:11; 1 Pet. 1:2). It is an expression of the eternal, sovereign will of God who cannot change (Rom. 8:29; 2 Thess. 2:13). Therefore the salvation of the elect is certain (Rom. 8:28, 33).
    Election is a necessary condition for salvation; faith is the sufficient condition. The elect inevitably believe, but they do not believe against their will. They have a God-given desire and ability to trust in Christ for salvation (Acts 13:48; 1 Cor. 15:10; Phil. 1:29; 2:13). The elect choose God because He effectively calls them through the proclamation of the gospel of Jesus Christ; they choose Him because He first chose and called them to Himself (Rom. 8:28). That initiating love of God is reflected in Jesus’ statement, “You did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16).
    A careful study of the Bible’s doctrine of man cures any romantic notion of a human will that is free to choose for or against God. Those who are slaves to sin and its power (Rom. 6:6) neither understand nor seek after God in and of themselves (Rom. 3:11; John 14:17; 1 Cor. 2:14). Outside of Christ, people are spiritually dead rebels who neither desire to submit to the Lord Jesus Christ nor are able to. Apart from God’s gracious, free, eternal, and sovereign choice of sinners to become His children, none would be saved but would remain forever under His wrath (Rom. 1:18).
    Election is not to be a source of complacency (2 Pet. 1:12) or presumption (Rom. 11:19–22) on the part of Christians. They are to make their calling and election certain by growing in godliness (2 Pet. 1:2–11) as they respond with gratitude to God’s electing love (Col. 3:12–17).
    God has chosen Christians to bear the image and glory of Christ (Rom. 8:29; 2 Thess. 2:14). They have been elected to be holy in conduct, like Christ (Eph. 1:4). Like Him, they are also to be glorified in their whole being in the life to come (2 Cor. 3:18; Phil. 3:21). The ultimate goal of our election is that we might bring praise and glory to God (Eph. 1:6; Rom. 11:33; 2 Thess. 2:13).


    Youngblood, R. F., Bruce, F. F., Harrison, R. K., & Thomas Nelson Publishers. (1995). Nelson's new illustrated Bible dictionary. Rev. ed. of: Nelson's illustrated Bible dictionary.; Includes index. Nashville: T. Nelson.
     
  10. bjonson

    bjonson New Member

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    That is it...corporate election. There is no thing as individual election not "in Christ" or unconditionally. There is a condition...believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you WILL be saved. </font>[/QUOTE]webdog...

    The Bible disagrees with you:

    “Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days. - Mark 13:20
    “I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats My bread has lifted up his heel against Me.’ - John 13:18
    “You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. - John 15:16
    “If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you. - John 15:19
    After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. - Acts 15:7
    “For many are called, but few are chosen.” - Matthew 22:14
    “Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. - Matthew 24:22; cf. Mark 13:20
    “For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. - Matthew 24:24; cf. Mark 13:22
    “And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. - Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:27
    So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience; - Colossians 3:12
    For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory. - 2 Timothy 2:10
    Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness, - Titus 1:1
     
  11. MatthewHenry

    MatthewHenry New Member

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    The false teaching that God chooses who will be saved and that
    only those who are chosen can be saved (Calvinism)

    Bible Answer:

    a. The Bible says that God wants all men to be saved (1 Tim. 2:3-5; 2
    Pet. 3:9).

    b. Jesus died for the sins of all men, not just some who are
    pre-chosen (1 John 2:1-2).

    c. God has ordained that every person who believes on Christ will be
    saved (Jn. 6:40).

    d. God has commanded that the gospel be preached to every person (Mark 16:15).

    e. The Holy Spirit convicts every sinner and Jesus draws and gives
    light to every sinner (Jn. 1:9; 12:32; 16:7-8).

    f. Believers are the elect of God, but that does not mean that God
    chooses some to be saved and the others not to be saved. Election is
    based on God's foreknowledge (1 Pet. 1:2).

    MH :D
     
  12. bjonson

    bjonson New Member

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    That is it...corporate election. There is no thing as individual election not "in Christ" or unconditionally. There is a condition...believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you WILL be saved. </font>[/QUOTE]Webdog,

    You say there is a condition, to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you WILL be saved. Of course, I believe that believing on the Lord is necessary for salvation. However, let me ask you a couple of questions:

    "But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:12-13, ESV)

    According to this passage, what role does man's will have in salvation? What role does our flesh have? Whose will is mentioned as the one effective in bringing salvation?

    Also,

    "Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”" (John 6:28-29, ESV)

    According to this passage, what did Jesus say was a "work of God"?

    Then,

    "Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him, so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: “Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said, “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”" (John 12:37-40, ESV)

    According to this passage, who does the "blinding" and who can or cannot believe?
     
  13. bjonson

    bjonson New Member

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    The theologian with your name would have disagreed with your ultimate point because he was a Calvinist! ;)
     
  14. MatthewHenry

    MatthewHenry New Member

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  15. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    By denying election the way calvinism presents it does not mean I believe man plays any part in his salvation. Acceptance of a free gift in no way mean that the person receiving the gift worked with the giver, or worked for the gift. Ephesians 2:8-9 is crystal clear on this.
     
  16. bjonson

    bjonson New Member

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    webdog,

    Only the elect will believe and accept this gift. And, all those who do believe and repent will be saved, without exception.
     
  17. Preacher @ Bethel

    Preacher @ Bethel New Member

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    Exscentric said to pleas elaborate after I posted my reply so if I take "elaborate" to the extreme please just tell me shut up and I will (ha,ha). [​IMG] If you study your bible there is no way around election.
    (I Corinthians 1:23,24) "But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God." First let us notice that we are to preach Christ crucified, this being the saving gospel. Now I want you to notice that unto the Jews it is a stumbling block and unto the Greeks foolishness. We know that the preaching of the gospel is the means that God uses to save lost sinners (1Cor. 1:21), but we see here that unto the Jews it is a stumbling block and unto the Greeks foolishness. So, we realize that the gospel is preached and yet, not all who here it are saved.

    My question is, "Who made the difference?" All who hear the gospel are not saved. So, who made the difference? Is it the preacher or the one who delivers the gospel message? Do you have to say it just right? Notice (I Corinthians 1:24). Here we find our answer."But unto them which are called." So, we see here that the gospel is preached, but all of those that hear it are not saved and we also see that the difference is that some are called while others are not. Many would have you to believe that the only call is that of the preaching of the gospel. That is why it is so important that we read and study these scriptures. Because we see a distinction made here. In deed the preaching of the gospel is a call to all men to salvation. It is what we refer to as the general call. But, we see here that the gospel is preached, but it is only effective to those who are called. So we see here that there is another call and this is what makes the difference. We call this the effectual call. Who is responsible for this calling? (I Thessalonians 1:4,5) "Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake." Not in word only. You see that "word" is the preaching of the gospel which is God's general call unto all men to salvation. We see here that there must be some thing else in order for that general call to have an effect on you and Paul refers to it here as "power".
    And that power we see here is through the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit. This is what we call the inward or effectual call, because it is what makes that saving gospel effective. It is the Holy Spirit calling us to salvation. My friend God makes the difference and we cannot deny it. Consider several scriptures that teach this.
    (John 6:44) No man.
    (Romans 9:11-16) He has mercy on whom He will have mercy.
    (John 15:16) God did the choosing.
    (John 15:19)
    (II Thessalonians 2:13)
    (Ephesians 1:4)

    Many people would say that God would be unjust and terrible in doing such a thing.
    I want you to notice the scripture that we have read concerning God's calling. God's choosing.
    These verses continually refer to God's MERCY and His GRACE. Do you realize what Grace is?
    It is the unmerited favor of God. Notice I said unmerited. Yes, that means undeserved.
    God is giving you some thing that you do not deserve. Does that sound unjust to you?
    As we have stated before, if you had twenty five inmates in a prison that had committed a crime that put them there and you choose three to set free have you done the twenty two that are left an injustice?
    Of course not. You have done the three a favor. They were all guilty and you had mercy on three.

    What is man guilty of?
    (Genesis 2:7) God creates man.
    Man at this point is innocent and sinless.
    He has done nothing wrong. He was simply created by God.
    (Genesis 2:16,17)
    God now gives man a commandment. Something to abide by. He also gives man a consequence. A warning of punishment.
    (Genesis 3:6)

    Man knowing what God had commanded him and knowing the consequence chooses to disobey God and take of the fruit.

    Now you have sin. Now you have a lost sinner.
    I want you to realize that Adam represented man kind.
    That was God's creation and mankind fail from that innocent and sinless state when Adam fail.
    (Romans 5:12)
    (Romans 5:14)

    The word of God speaks of God quickening people who were dead in trespasses and sins. The word quicken means "to make alive". We know they weren't physically dead and therefore they must have been spiritually dead. We find that after the fall in the garden all of mankind became physically dying and spiritually dead. I hope that this helps you see the state that man is in.
    If he is by nature spiritually dead then this God consciousness is dead. This means that man by his nature will not seek God. Knowing then that the nature is that of a spiritually dead, totally depraved, lost sinner we must conclude that man left to himself will not choose to seek God.
    The scripture points this out so well.
    (Psalms 51:5) We come out of the womb in this condition.
    (Romans 3:10-12,23)
    (I Corinthians 2:14)
    (Ephesians 2:1) Were dead. Were dead physically?
    Of course not. (Dead spiritually)
    No matter how you cut it, no matter how you dice it, GOD MAKES THE DIFFERENCE.
    It is by God's grace. His unmerited favor.
     
  18. Preacher @ Bethel

    Preacher @ Bethel New Member

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    I would like to reply to Bro. Timtoolmans message.
    "I am not ashamed to admitt I don't understand this. God has created a race that disobeyed him and fell into sin. All His plan we agree, I think. Then leaves most of mankind bound or predestian for hell while saving a few.
    HOw would you two feel if I walk up too either one of you and said "Praise the Lord he has chosen me but your child is headed for hell! Praise the Lord!I mean call me not saved it you want, or carnal but how can I say what a glorious, loving, merciful God, God is that any of my loved ones are predestian for hell with no escape?!God's love is too shine through us. I love enough, thanks be to the indwelling of the HS, that even my most spitefull enemy on earth here I do not wish to go too hell. Am I producing a love that God does not have. Do I love my enemy as God commands too while He does not? "

    Bro. Timtoolman,
    I too once shared your feeling until slowly but surely God revealed to me what His word teaches us about this subject. God hasn't predestinated anyone to hell. He simply permits them to go to hell. You must understand the difference between God will of decree and God's permisive will. God decreed for Christ to die on the cross for my sins. God did not have to force the men who crucified Him to do what they did. He simply allowed them to act within their own depraved nature. Consider the following:

    Joh 12:47 "And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world." God came to save the world. If God can't accomplish what He came to do then He is a failure. I personally belive that He will do just what He came to do.

    I believe we often get confused by a statement in the bible and that statement is "the world".
    I would like to begin by defining this word according to the Bible.
    The word in the Greek is "kos'-mos" at least for the verse that we will be considering. The word means, "orderly arrangement". Orderly arrangement is a lot different then what we would define the English word "world" as today. We need to keep this in mind as we study our Bibles concerning this word. I think that as we study this word in our bibles that it should become obvious that there are more worlds or orderly arrangements then just one. There are many orderly arrangements spoken of in our bibles.(2Pe 2:5) In this passage of scripture we find that there was an old world which necessitates that there is a new one.We also find that there is a world referred to as the ungodly. We find that this Greek word "kosmos" is used in our bibles in a wide variety of ways. Let's begin by looking at a very popular passage of scripture (John 3:16).
    When we study all of our Bible it becomes obvious that (John 3:16) is not teaching us that God loved every individual in the world. This can be concluded by examining a few simple scriptures.
    (Mal 1:3) and (Ro 9:13) If God loved every individual in this world then He would have loved Esau. The Bible says that He hated Esau. (Ps 5:5) Here we find that God hates all workers of iniquity. If God loved every individual in the world then He would not hate the workers of iniquity. One of my favorites is found in (1Jo 2:15). "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him." This word, "world" is the same Greek word, "kosmos" that is found in (John 3:16).
    We can learn here that if any man love the "kosmos" then the love of the Father is not in him.
    Again, this necessitates that there must be more than one "kosmos". There is a "kosmos" which God loved and a "kosmos" which he does not love. If the "kosmos" in (John 3:16) was the same as the "kosmos" in (1John 2:15) then the love of the Father would not be in the Father??? I believe as we study these passages that we must conclude that there is a "kosmos" for which Christ loved and one which He didn't. The "kosmos" for which God loved and gave His Son is the same "kosmos" that is made up of the "whosoever wills" in (John 3:16).

    So, who are the "whosoever wills" ? (John 6:37-44) There is a particular orderly arrangement which God the Father gave to the Son. (John 3:16) speaks of "whosoever will" and (John 6:44) says that the only one's that will, are those that the Father draws.

    (Romans 8:28-37) Here we find a particular people that are called of God. These people are referred to as the elect (Romans 8:33). (Romans 8:37) It is this particular people that God loved.
    This is God's "kosmos" or orderly arrangement of a particular people of which He will save every last one. (Joh 13:1) He loved His own!!

    (Joh 1:29) and (1Jo 2:2) Here we find Jesus Christ coming to take away the sin of the world.
    Propitiation means to satisfy. When we put these two passages together we find that the Lord Jesus Christ came to satisfy and take away the sin of the "kosmos". If someone's sins are satisfied and taken away then they are no longer condemned. Therefore we must conclude that this "kosmos" for whom Christ came to be a propitiation and take away their sin must no longer be condemned.

    In (1Co 11:32) we find a "kosmos" that will be condemned.
    From this we must conclude that there is a "kosmos" for which Christ took away sin and satisfied their sins and there is a "kosmos" for which He did not do this.

    If we find the "kosmos" that is not condemned according to the word of God then we can find the "kosmos" for which Christ took away sin and became their propitiation.
    We find that "kosmos" in (Joh 5:24). This "kosmos" for whom Christ became a propitiation is also referred to as His sheep (John 5:26-29). Those that hear and believe are the sheep.
    Those that don't aren't His sheep.

    (Joh 12:47) and (2Co 5:19) Here we find that there is a "kosmos" which Christ came to save and to reconcile. To be reconciled is to be returned to the favor of God. So there is a "kosmos" for whom Christ came to save and return to the favor of God. We know that every individual in the world is not saved because we read of those who are condemned and those who enter hell (Lu 16:23).

    If we can find those who are saved then we can find the "kosmos" for whom Christ came to save.
    (Matt. 1:21) "He will save His people".
    His people are the "kosmos" that Christ came to reconcile and save.
    (John 10:7-9) Who will enter in? The sheep. The one whom God draws according to (John 6:44).
    (Acts 2:21) Those that will call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    (1Corinthians 1:18) Here we see a "kosmos" that will perish and that think the preaching of the cross is foolishness. We also see a "kosmos" in this passage that will be saved.
    We see that the "kosmos" which will be saved is the "kosmos" which God "called" (1Corinthians 1:24). We have already learned that the "kosmos" which He calls is referred to as the elect (Romans 8:29-30) and (Romans 8:33). So then we conclude that this "kosmos" for which Christ came to save is His sheep or the elect. It becomes very simple to see who Christ gave His life for (Joh 10:11) and (Joh 10:15). Christ gave His life for the sheep, the elect, the "kosmos" that would believe. He took away the sin of the sheep, the elect, the "kosmos" that the Father gave Him. Christ became the propitiation and saved the sheep, the elect, the "kosmos" that the Father gave Him. It becomes simple when we remember that the word "kosmos" means "the orderly arrangement of".

    There are different "orderly arrangements" found in our Bibles but there is only one "orderly arrangement" that Christ died for".
    There is only one "orderly arrangement" for which Christ will save.
    Christ will indeed save each and everyone in that particular "orderly arrangement".
    My Bible tells me that Christ came to save the "orderly arrangement" and that is exactly what He will do.
    Not one that the Father gave Him shall be lost.
    How do you know if you are part of that "kosmos"?
    If you can come then you are!!

    By His Grace,
    Preacher @ Bethel
     
  19. Linda64

    Linda64 New Member

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    By denying election the way calvinism presents it does not mean I believe man plays any part in his salvation. Acceptance of a free gift in no way mean that the person receiving the gift worked with the giver, or worked for the gift. Ephesians 2:8-9 is crystal clear on this. </font>[/QUOTE]Some of these posts are so long that it takes forever to decipher them. Obviously, there are people who are posting from commentaries and not giving the references. It appears to me that the "intellectuals" like to post long commentaries.

    Salvation is simple--Admit you are a sinner (Romans 3:23); Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved (Acts 16:31); Confess (1 John 1:9), confess Christ before men (Matthew 10:32); Come unto Me and I will give you rest (Matthew 11:28).

    Going into these long and drawn out dissertations gets to be redundant. [​IMG] Jesus Christ came to save sinners--the Bible says we are all sinners (Rom. 3:23). Election is based on the foreknowledge of God--pretty basic (Eph. 1:1-14)
     
  20. standingfirminChrist

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    many choose to take the role
    of firstborn, elect, the chosen soul
    But they come not by simple plea
    Lord save me now and set me free
     
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