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Electric Cars

Discussion in 'News & Current Events' started by Van, Oct 10, 2020.

  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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  2. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    We had a '56 Chevy Bel Aire. That was when Chevy made dependable cars.

    Electric cars are too expensive to operate. Batteries are expensive to manufacture and dispose of. Electricity is very expensive to produce and we already have a teetering power grid. Electricity for cars was rejected a century ago. The impact of electric cars on the environment would be catastrophic.
     
  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yes, my neighbor across the street has a "hot rodded" 56 Chevy in His garage.

    According to the article electric was less expensive to operate (energy and maintenance) than cars exhausting noxious fumes.

    We have a "teetering" power grid because government has not required the utilities to build a robust one. Years ago, before the advent of NIMBY advocacy, the utilities could build into the rate base sufficient funding to expand with demand and rebuild their system to enhance reliability.
     
  4. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    I think that electricity is more expensive because of the high cost of storage batteries as well as the high cost of producing electricity and transmitting it.

    In an emergency, power fails and an electric car would be useless. That's also a problem with gasoline because of excessive ethanol creating storage problems. In the 50s everyone had some gas in the garage.
     
  5. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    Biden says he will place car electric recharge stations all over the place. And restart cash for clunkers. Of course the greens are ecstatic about this, but people so far dont want electric cars, not yet, not till they get better batteries. I dont mind them at all, I just dont want it forced on us by government decrees.

    Biden plan would broaden EV tax credit, include Cash for Clunkers reboot
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    CR found the energy costs were less for electric. A base rate for electric (13 cents per kwh) works out to be about equivalent to gas at $1.50 per gallon.

    Yes, the unreliability of electric power is a problem, but not of the BEV alone. and the fix is to make energy reliable again (MERA).

    Yes, in the 1950's I put some gas I found in the garage into my lawnmower. Could not get it started. I guess it was not actually gas, but some sort of solvent.
     
  7. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    Electric cars were viable when folks pretty much just drove around their home town. As soon as they started to drive any distance internal combustion engines took over.
     
  8. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    old gas can no longer vaporize to run in a carbureted engine. Engines run on vaporized gasoline, not liquid gas (=flooded engine) so was probably old gas.
     
  9. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    With electric cars, you have to set aside the federal subsidy and factor in the environmental damage and cost of the manufacture and disposal of the batteries, which have to be replaced regularly.
     
  10. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    The amount of misinformation and ignorance displayed in this thread is astounding.

    1. There are no more federal subsidies for electric vehicles. They were on a sliding scale towards zero for the past several years and have completely expired this spring.

    2. The impact of electric cars on the environment will be far, far less damaging than internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles. Zero emissions. f there is a power failure it is possible to hook your electric vehicle up to your household electric circuits and say, run your refrigerator until utility power is restored. The ultimate goal will be to have solar panels on your home that will charge storage batteries in your garage, whereupon you will recharge your vehicles with the power from the sun. I

    3. Batteries for electric cars are being made these days that easily exceed 150,000 miles. They do not need to be replaced regularly. Tesla is working on a million mile battery and has a goal of delivering one in 2022. Nio has a battery swap program where you can get your electric vehicle battery swapped out for a fresh one in less than 5 minutes. The cost is included in the price of the car. Batteries that reach end of life can be recycled.

    4. The cost of operating an electric vehicle is less than a gas powered car right now and is decreasing every year. It costs about 5 cents per mile to charge and operate a Tesla performance range EV right now. Conservative estimates predict by the year 2030 auto makers will no longer offer a gas powered car to consumers. This will be achieved through market forces and not government incentives or subsidies.

    5. The cost of electric vehicles will reach a tipping point in less than five years where it will be cheaper to buy a five passenger EV for less than a five passenger ICE vehicle. At that point the question will become--should you buy an electric vehicle that costs less than 5 cents per mile to charge, has a battery that will last you 250,000 miles, doesn't pollute, has virtually no maintenance, and you can plug in overnight, essentially making gas stations a place you never have to go to again, or do you get a gas powered vehicle that costs much more per mile to operate, pollutes the air, and comes with all the maintenance and potential breakdown headaches?

    6. The range of electric vehicles, or the distance they can travel between charges, is increasing every year. Basic Tesla's have a range of about 250 miles; long range batteries in the Tesla's push that to 348 miles.

    7. Electric vehicles have about 20 moving parts in their drivetrain. Gas powered cars have over 200 moving parts in their drivetrain.

    8. Electric powered vans and delivery trucks, like those used by UPS and FedEx are perfect uses for electric vehicles. They have daily mileage routes of less than 100 miles, so a battery charge will more than last the day, and they more gas powered delivery vans that get lousy gas mileage are replaced with electric vehicles the cleaner the air will become.

    Electric cars have some obstacles to overcome but they are not battery life, high cost of operation, cost of electricity, problems with disposing of batteries, etc.
     
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  11. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    Beautiful dreams. There has to be mining for the minerals to build batteries. Solar panels are not cost effective. The power grid would have to be greatly increased so the pollution is transferred to the power plants. California already has blackouts and so it is likely that the nation would experience roving blackouts under the stress of increasing the output of an obsolete grid. Also, the grid is vulnerable to domestic and foreign terrorism.
     
  12. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I was never able to identify the "bad gas" but with my Dad's help, we were able to clean up the fuel system and get it running so I could mow the lawn. :)
     
  13. Roy

    Roy <img src=/0710.gif>
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    Would it be practical to pull a trailer-mounted generator behind the electric car just for long hauls to avoid having to plan on recharge stops? It was only in the last 20 years that it came to my attention that train locomotives are driven by electric motors. The engine noises are diesel-driven generators which power the electric motors.
    I chatted with an elderly car enthusiast about a year ago. He had a large 60s model car (maybe a Buick or Pontiac), and he said he was monkeying with the idea of converting it to electric by modifying the drive train, installing an electric motor in the front and a generator in the rear. He said that although the generator would burn fuel, the car would still get better gas mileage than it would in its stock condition. He also told me what I already knew about train locomotives.
     
  14. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    Yes but inefficient and the electric generator would have to be a big one. And the gen output would have to wired into the battery circuit. it would also be charging the batteries, so load of batteries and load of the electric motor. It sounds pretty expensive. Would have to be diesel generator, gas would be very inefficient.

    Locomotives do the electric traction motors for torque, pulling power from dead stops, the demands are insanely high to get the whole train moving. Electric motors develop full torque at 0 rpm. So the diesel engine spinning the generator can be spinning around madly at high speed while the train is very slowly starting to move. Their is no practical transmission possible to replicate what is needed.
     
    #14 Scott Downey, Oct 11, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2020
  15. Roy

    Roy <img src=/0710.gif>
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    I am not against electric cars. Let the market place decide.
     
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  16. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    You should buy Utility ETFs if you think the demand for electricity will skyrocket. I have no doubt eventually most cars will be electric by mid century but doubt sooner than that, batteries still need to get better. Regardless of politics, auto companies are promising that they will end IC engine sales.
     
  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I see Tesla vehicles in gas stations to clean their windows, use the rest rooms, and buy some snacks and soda.
    Many of the routine maintenance items are non-existent such as oil and filter change, spark plugs, and injector cleaning.
    Tires still need inflation and rotation and balance, and in cold weather locations, brakes need servicing once a year. Most everything else needs servicing when needed or every 2 or more years.

    I recently was charged about $1000 to "fix" oil leaks, but based on my garage floor mess, they made it worse. You will not have those kind of problems with a BEV.

    A huge industry wants to discourage the advent of BEV's but in Southern California, Tesla vehicles are everywhere.
     
  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Lets say a routine full recharge of a BEV takes 70 Kwhs. At 13 cents per, that works out to about $9.10. Lets say $10.00 for simplicity. Now a BEV would get between 3 miles and 4 miles per kwh, so you would go about 210 miles on a 70 kwh charge.
    For a 30 MPG gas vehicle, it would take about 7 gallons to go that far. At $1.50 per gallon, the cost would be about $10.00.
    So if you juice costs 13 cents or less per kwh, or you pay more that a buck fifty per gallon, the BEV figures to be cheaper to fuel, so to speak.
     
  19. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    Yes it does cost less to drive, it is the upfront purchase vehicle cost that needs to come down and the lack of readily available fast charging. Gas up in a few minutes and go from anywhere in the USA, not so with electric motors yet.
     
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  20. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    I wish that you would factor in damage to the environment and the expense of batteries.
     
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