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End Times

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by John3v36, Apr 10, 2006.

  1. mnw

    mnw New Member

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    Mel, have you no idea that even in the English language we use etymology to better understand our words. So too in Greek, and perhaps more so because it is such a complex language. To get the full picture of a word you have to take into context its masculine/feminine/neutral/plural/singular/verb/noun....

    You say I decieved, But how so? I clearly state the fact that I am going to the root of the word. If that type of study is too deep for you then fine, wallow in the shallow end of theology, but do not charge me with deception.

    Mel, you misrepresent Strong and Thayer as they do not state the G646 means simply apostacy. They record it as meaning, at its simplest form, falling away, forsake. Only the context can give a definite indication of apostacy. Which I do not believe our context in Thessalonians gives.
     
  2. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    EdSutton: //EdSutton has been arguing -er I mean debating, eschatology for years? Well, maybe, but not on the BB, as I've only been a member for less than a year.//

    I rephrase:
    EdSutton is one of the posters here in the Theology Forum of
    BB = Baptist Board. Said Eschatological discussion has been going
    on for years.


    Whomever: //The only thing that is allowed with
    the book of Revelations is the hearing of it. Interpretation is warned against.

    Ed Sutton: //Oh really??//

    I don't know of any meaning of 'interpretation' that makes this statement
    correct. Is it a sin to translate it from Greek to English? Isn't that
    called interpretation? Is it a sin to change your life so that you
    serve the Lord? Isn't such a move called
    an interpretation in into one's life.
     
  3. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    mnw,

    Shame on you for denying I correctly gave the root meaning of Apostasy as being a "forsaking".
    Quote:
    ___________________________________________________________________
    Mel, you misrepresent Strong and Thayer as they do not state the G646 means simply apostacy. They record it as meaning, at its simplest form, falling away, forsake.
    ___________________________________________________________________

    Your method of rebuttal, i.e., denying that I wrote the truth, is exactly what I meant by your deceptive tactics. If you had the veracity to admit I correctly gave Strong's and Thayer's meaning, I would have respect for you; but you remove that possibility. I wrote:

    Quote from #206:
    ___________________________________________________________________
    Again, I see no scripture reference for your remarks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Apostasia (#646) is used one other time in the N.T. as I showed you!!!!
    It is translated FORSAKE. Why can't you produce scripture?????????????

    YOU DID NOT ACKNOWLEDGE THAT ACTS 21:21 HAS "FORSAKE".
    THIS IS THE ONLY OTHER REFERENCE TO APOSTASY IN THE N.T.!

    In #211, I wrote:

    Apostasia only means "defection from truth; to forsake". That is Strong's definition and Thayer's definition. Your substitute of a different Greek word, aphistemi (#868), is another case of "deception"!! ________________________________________________________________________

    You actually agreed with me that Strong says Apostasy means “FORSAKE”, but then you accuse me of misrepresenting the meaning. That is deceitful !!!!!

    “The New Strong’s Complete Dictionary of Bible Words” states the meaning of Apostasy is “defection from truth … FORSAKE”. P.585.

    “Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon”, P.67, says Apostasy means “defection from true religion” not only in the New Testament but also in the Greek translation of the Old Testament”!

    Why are you being underhanded? ...
    (1) By inserting a word in 2 Thess.2:3 that is not used by Paul in that verse, i.e., substituting Aphistemi (#868) for Apostasia (#646); and then, after I quote the true meaning of Apostasia as "FORSAKE",
    (2) By stating that Strong says “Apostasy does not mean simply apostacy”. Of course Apostasy means Apostasy. But why did you deny that I quoted Strong as saying it means “defection of truth … to forsake”!! That, sir, in my opinion, is duplicitous and dishonest.
    My erstwhile friend, I believe in Biblical accuracy ... not in deceiving people.

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net
     
  4. mnw

    mnw New Member

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    All I am saying is that you give only the part of the definition of the word that suits you. What I am saying is that there is a broader definition which the context can narrow down to a particular meaning. Here is Thayer's:



    Please note that his first definition is simply falling away, not apostacy.

    Strongs.



    Although in a different order he does list falling away and forsake.

    Note that Thayer also makes reference to the G647 - The root and other forms of the word can be a help in defining meaning.

    What say you of those men such as Tyndale and others who translated the word as a departure?

    I did not say you did not write the truth, I did state that you misrepresented Thayer and Strongs. The reason I said that is because you only gave the part of the definition that suited.

    I have not substituted any words in the passage, but simply looked deeper into the Greek behind them. This work was primarily down by men with degrees in language and who have spent life times studying such matters.

    What I will apologise for writing is the statement I made about your having shallow theology. That was wrong of me and I apologise. However, everything else I stand by.

    Like I said before, I do not catergorically state my chosen interpretation is the only one, but I do believe that is correct.
     
  5. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    mnw,

    You insist on saying I mistrepresented Strong and Thayer. FALSE!!!!!!!!!!

    Quote:
    ____________________________________________________________
    I did not say you did not write the truth, I did state that you misrepresented Thayer and Strongs. The reason I said that is because you only gave the part of the definition that suited.
    ____________________________________________________________

    I gave the exact definition by Strong which is "defection" from the truth.
    Strong gives the ONLY two translations of Apostasia found in the N. T.!!
    Those 2 translations are "falling away and forsake." Naturally I didn't repeat "falling away" because that is the translation in the KJV for 2 Thess.2:3.

    You continue to use the word "departure" which comes from #868; not
    from #646 or #647. Then you claim Apostasia is translated "departure"!
    That, I repeat, is deceptive and dishonest. Why? Because you have
    not once admitted the only other use of Apostasia is to FORSAKE!!!!!!!!

    Shalom.

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net
     
  6. mnw

    mnw New Member

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    I've explained my position and I have nothing more to say.
     
  7. mojoala

    mojoala New Member

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    Just quoting scripture dude. It's in there.

    2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

    Take it up with God, not me.
     
  8. mojoala

    mojoala New Member

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    no problem with that. The issue of private interpretation still stands.
     
  9. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Mojoala,
    This is your last warning. All further posts will be deleted.
    You are not a Baptist. Refrain from posting in the Baptist Only forums.
    Thank you.
    DHK
     
  10. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    mnw,

    "Explaining your position" has been done with the aim of re-inserting a word into 2 Thess.2:3 that has been mis-used by others to show the End Time will begin with the "departure of the Church" to heaven in a Pre-Tib Rapture. The substituted word is "aphistemi" which means *departure* instead of the actual word "apostasia" (Strong's #646) which means *defection* from truth! The meaning of this substitute word falls far short of "apostasy"!!

    The word "departure" (Strong's #868) does not have the idea of forsaking
    truth which is the only translation given by Strong for the word "apostasy" other than "forsake". Applying this word to the "departure of the church to heaven" distorts the meaning in two ways. First, it fails to point out the moral evil of apostasy ... making the apostasy a blessing instead of a defection. Second, it suggests only a physical movement from one place to another that constitutes escape from the presence of evil when it must constitute a judgment for defection from and rebellion against the truth.

    Revelation shows the church's Endtime acts of idolatry and fornication will bring God's judgment on Mystery Babylon at the final culmination of the "mystery of iniquity". Paul identifies this as "THE apostasy". It is not just
    "a falling away" as in the KJV. It is "THE rebellion" as in the NIV.

    THE defection of the church AND the revelation of the Lawless One are two pre-requisites for the Day of the Lord to be fulfilled. The "gathering of armies to Armageddon" is the final requirement for the Day of God's wrath. That's when Christ will come "as a thief". Rev.16:14-16.

    The "setting" for God's judgment on the church (at Daniel's Midweek) is Mystery Babylon's rule over the kings of earth. The "setting" for God's wrath is the shedding of the martyrs' blood including the Two Witnesses. Rev.17:6; Rev.18:24. That means the 7th Plague empties and the 7th Seal opens before the 7th Trumpet sounds that "God's wrath has come".

    Armies of Plagues 6 and 7 cross the Euphrates before Seals 6 and 7 open and all 4 of these events occur between the 6th and 7th Trumpets"!

    One of ten reasons for this is that God's DAY of wrath occurs in (3 1/2) days after the tribulation "whenever the 7th Trumpet is about to sound".
    Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:
     
  11. mnw

    mnw New Member

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    You have a system of eschatology that is completely way off anything I have ever seen before. Now, I intend on given it a chance and looking into your writings in more detail.

    However, I have stated my position on this specific issue, that's it, I am out of here.
     
  12. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    mnw,
    Go out and look in the night sky. When you see Jupiter aligned with Mars, and Saturn's rings tilted north to south, look toward the moon. You will see leprochans in flying saucers coming to earth out of the largest crater. Then you will know the end is near.
     
  13. mnw

    mnw New Member

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    Saturn, I tried, but it is cloudy...

    Regarding the crater, is it literally the largest crater, or just symbolically?
     
  14. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    http://www.lastday.net/

    a page called '70th seven"

    //"Chronos-Time Ends; Kairos-Time has come." Rev.10:6,7; Rev.11:18//

    Sorry, this is smoke & mirrors ONLY.

    Revelation 10:6 ( NAS):
    and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, WHO
    CREATED HEAVEN AND THE THINGS IN IT,
    AND THE EARTH AND THE THINGS IN IT,
    AND THE SEA AND THE THINGS IN IT,
    that there will be delay no longer,

    Here is a better way to say it:

    (Revelation 10:6) there will be delay no longer
    (Revelation 11:18) it has come the time for God's Wrath,
    God's Judgement, and God's rewards of His own

    because revelation 11:18 follows the earlier part of revelation 11,
    and becasue revelation 11 starts out talking about the
    mid-Tribulation crisis, that the statement is about the
    last half of the Tribulation period, AKA: the Great Tribulation Period,
    AKA: the WRATH OF GOD, AKA: the day of the Lord.

    Anyway, here is my working timeline:
    ---------------------------------------------------
    Expanded pretrib pre-mill timeline:

    0. church age continues

    1. rapture/resurrection

    2. The 7-year Tribulation Period

    2a. Starting events
    2a1. The seven year AC/Israel treaty
    2a2. The revelation of the AC

    2b. the first half (3.5years) - the Tribulation period
    (these items are not necessarily in time sequence)

    2b1. The Seal Judgments (Revelation 6)
    2b2. Rise of the Antichrist
    2b3. Ten nation confederacy (Daniel 2:42-44;
    ---- Daniel 7:7,24; Rev 12:3; Rev 17:12,16)
    2b4. The ministry of Elijah (Rev 11:3, Malachi 4:5,6)
    2b5. Ministry of the 144,000 Israeli (Rev 7)
    2b6. The Trumpet judgements/wrath (Rev 8-9)
    2b7. The false church (ecclesiastical Babylon)
    ----- (Revelation 17:1-6)

    2c. the mid-tribulation events
    (these items are not necessarily in time sequence)

    2c1. The Little Scroll (Rev 10)
    2c2. AC killed (Rev 13:3)
    2c3. Satan cast out of heaven (Rev 12:7,9)
    2c4. Resurrection of AC (Rev 13:3,4)
    2c5. 3 kings killed, 7 submit to AC
    2c6. destruction by AC of false church (Rev 7:16)
    2c7. Death/resurrection of two witnesses
    2c8. Worship of the AC starts (Rev 13:3,4,8 )
    2c9. Rise of the False Prophet (Rev 13:11-15)
    2c10. MOB=mark of the beast (Rev 13:16-18 )
    2c11. 7-year covenant broken (Isaiah 28:18; Daniel 11:41)
    2c12. AOD=abomination of Desolation
    ----- (Daniel 9:27; Matthew 24:15,16; 2 Thess 2:4)
    2c13. Persecution of the Jews begins
    ----- (Rev 12:1-6)

    2d. the second half (3.5years) - the Great Tribulation period
    (these items are not necessarily in time sequence)

    2d0. Rule of the Antichrist
    2d1. the Bowl Judgments/wrath (Rev 16)
    2d2. protection of the Jewish Remnant
    ---- (Micah 2:12; Matthew 24:16; Revelation 12:6,14)
    2d3. Armageddon (these items are in time sequence):

    2d3a. - assembling the allies of AC
    ------- (Rev 16:12-16)
    2d3b. - destruction of Babylon
    ------- (Isaiah 13; Jeremiah 50-51; Revelation 18 )
    2d3c. - Fall of Jerusalem
    ------- (Micah 4:11-5:1; Zachariah 12:1-9; 14:1,2)
    2d3d. - Armies of AC at Bozrah (Jeremiah 49:13,14)
    2d3e. - Conversion of Israel complete
    ------- (Zechariah 12:10; Romans 11:25-27)

    (2e the end of the Trib, which is the Second Advent
    ---- of Jesus to defeat the AC and set up the MK)

    3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    3a. postrib gathering and resurrection of the trib saints
    3b. antichrist and false prophet are cast alive into the Lake of Fire
    - 19:20-22!
    3c. The Judgment of the Nations= Matthew 25:31-46

    4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom

    5. Satan loosed for a little season to deceive the Nations - Revelation 20:7-8!

    6. The final battle of God and Magog! - Revelation 20:8-9!

    7. Satan cast into the lake of Fire. - Revelation 20:10!

    8. The Great White Throne of Judgment! - Revelation 20:11-15!

    9.new heaven & new earth - 2 Peter 3:10

    10. The Eternal Kingdom! The New Heavens and New Earth
    and the New Jerusalem! - Revelation 21:1-3!
    -------------------------------------------------------
     
  15. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Thank you for dropping by. I see a person hung up on one word
    in one verse that isn't even critical to the main 'pretribulation rapture,
    premillinnila Second Advent of Jesus' scheme of things.
    Even if he turned out to be right about the one word in 2 Thess 2:3
    he has thousands of my words to refute :smilewinkgrin:

    I still say the key word in 2 Thess is the AND in verse 2:1
    not the APOSTASY/DEPARTURE/FALLING AWAY in verse 2:3.
    But nobody wants to talk about common words like AND or
    FIRST. Yet these common ordinary words cause the variations
    in doctrine.
     
    #235 Ed Edwards, Jul 31, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 31, 2006
  16. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    I checked out those flying saucers and the pilots look more like geckos wearing bowler hats than leprechauns. I guess the end isn't near quite yet.
     
  17. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Days of Elijah (Daybreak Music)


    These are the days of Elijah
    Declaring the Word of the Lord
    And tehse are the days of
    Your servant Moses
    Righteousness being restored
    And though these are days of great trials
    Famine and darkness and sword
    Still we are the voice in the desert crying

    Chorus:
    Behold he comes
    Riding on the clouds
    Shining like the sun
    At the trumpet call
    Lift your voice
    It's the year of jubilee
    And out of Zion's hill salvation comes
     
  18. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    These are the days of Ezekiel
    The dry bones becoming as flesh
    And these are the days of
    Your servant David
    building a temple of praise
    And these are the days of the harvest
    fields are as white in Your world
    and we are the laborers in Your vineyard
    declaring the Word of the Lord

    Chorus:
    Behold he comes
    Riding on the clouds
    Shining like the sun
    At the trumpet call
    Lift your voice
    It's the year of jubilee
    And out of Zion's hill salvation comes
     
  19. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    At this place:
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=1649

    on 11 Dec 2005, I said:

    IMHO the first half of Daniel's 70th week
    is covered by Revelation 4-13;
    the second half by Revelation 15-19.
    IMHO the first half of Daniel's 70th week
    is Tribulation Lite; the second half
    Tribulation HEAVY (AKA: Great Tribulation).

    Rev 6:15-17 (Geneva Bible):

    And the Kinges of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men,
    and the chiefe captaines, and the mighty men,
    and euery bondman, and euery free man, hid
    themselues in dennes, and among the rockes of the mountaines,
    16 And said to the mountaines and rocks, Fal on vs,
    and hide vs from the presence of him that sitteth
    on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lambe.
    17 For the great day of his wrath is come, and who can stand?

    Rev 9:6 (Geneva Bible):
    Therefore in those dayes shall men seeke death,
    and shall not finde it, and shall desire to die,
    and death shall flie from them.

    The first half, which i've called "tribualation lite" is
    a fate worse than death. The first half of the wrath
    of man; the second half of the 70th week the wrath of God.

    Revelation 14:10 describes the second half, the wrath of God
    to come, the Great Tribulation:

    Rev 14:10 The same shall drinke of the wine of the wrath of God,
    which is powred out without mixture
    into the cup of his indignation,
    and
    hee shall be tormented with fire and brimstone,
    in the presence of the holy Angels, and in the presence of the Lambe:

    No more baby Jesus, meek and mild. Not only will the followers
    of the Beast from the Sea/Satan suffer the Great Tribulation
    but also TOAST in HELL. And Jesus will do it to them.

    Don't go into the second half of the Tribulation.
    Praise God we get to escape the Tribulation 7-year-day
    before the Tribulation.
     
  20. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    Again, DHK. While I may or may not agree with Mojoala, the "public profile" still lists him (I presume a 'him') as Baptist, in two categories, and I quote:

    "Biography:
    considering leaving the Baptists"

    "Denomination(Baptist, Methodist, Catholic...):
    Indepedent (sic) Baptist considerin (sic) leaving it."

    To my knowledge, I do not know either you or mojoala, would not know either from Adam, nor have I ever met either in any situation. (Granted, he could benefit from some spell check.) However, his entry of :

    "Interests:
    My Biblical Studies are becoming Contradictory to my Pastor\'s teaching."

    and

    "Home Church:
    New Life"

    would not seem to alone disqualify his "being a Baptist", again unless there is some info you happen to be privy to that the rest of us are not.

    This seems in keeping with what are supposed to be the guidelines as they are listed, to my recollection, since "Baptist" is undefined, and runs the gamut, even among the posters. I have no dog in this fight, but want to see a level playing field for all.

    In His grace,

    Ed
     
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