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End Times

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by John3v36, Apr 10, 2006.

  1. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    Ed,

    Sure, you can say it is a literal "departure".
    But a Departure of the False Church (Babylon
    the Great) from the "midst" of world power as
    "ruler over the kings of earth" is much more
    in line with the Apocalyptic Endtime than the
    Departure of the TRUE Church.

    The sudden removal of Babylon the Great by Ten
    Kings who will "destroy her by fire in one hour"
    is the reason and occasion for the revelation
    of the Antichrist.

    God's coming judgment on Babylon, the Harlot,
    at midpoint of Daniel's 70th Seven, is the
    scriptural cause and appointed time for the
    removal of the Apostasy (the failed restrainer
    of terrorism because of her fornications) when God will "put into the minds of these ten kings to give their power and authority to the Beast".
    Rev.17:6-18.

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net
     
  2. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    An apostate is one who removed themselves from the teachings of Christianity. An apostate can be raptured, as I believe in the security of the believer.
     
  3. J. Jump

    J. Jump New Member

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    I would like to add that not all dispensationalists believe apostasy means raptured as some have tried to place them all into that category.

    I would agree with webdog's definition, except I believe it to be a certain teaching of Christianity, not the entire teaching of Christianity.

    And the famous last words..."and that's all I've got to say about that." [​IMG]
     
  4. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    Where in Gal. 2 or Acts 15 do they have a handshake agreement they will teach diffeent Gospels?

    Here is what Paul says:

    Act 26:6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made to our fathers by God ,
    Act 26:7 to which promise our twelve tribes hope to attain, serving God fervently night and day. For the sake of this hope, king Agrippa, I am accused by the Jews.


    Act 26:22 Then having obtained help from God, I stand until this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said was going to happen ;

    Paul is preaching nothing but the hope of Israel, hardly a new Gospel.
     
  5. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    While I realize two "Eds" are probably better than one :rolleyes: [​IMG] , uh- which Ed are you addressing- the 'Okie' from Muscogee or thereabouts [​IMG] , or the Redneck farmer from the Bluegrass state :eek: :D ?

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Ed
     
  6. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Mel Miller: //The sudden removal of Babylon the Great by Ten
    Kings who will "destroy her by fire in one hour"
    is the reason and occasion for the revelation
    of the Antichrist.//

    The Antichrist going into the Jewish Temple of God
    on Mount Moriah (AKA: Temple Mount) and declaring himself
    as God will be the 'revelation of the antichrist' - this
    is what some say.
    I say the 'revelation of the antichrist' will be when
    the pretribualtion rapture happens and the only one who
    can exploit the situation with power is the antichrist.

    Grasshopper: //If rapture would have been in mind, “depart” would have
    been a better word, not apostasy.//

    ;) tee hee - five English Versions prior the the King James
    Version of 1611 had a form of 'depart' where the King James version
    has 'falling away' and some modern versions (MVs) have
    'apostasy'.

    When Jesus comes to get me and the rest of His Chruch Age
    (Time of the Gentiles) saved, born-again, redeemed by the blood,
    Christian elect saints -- I'm going to 'fall away' from this
    old wicked world right into the arms of Jesus. Yes, I'm talking
    the pretribulation rapture/resurrection. AMen! Praise Jesus \o/
     
  7. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    Are you saying 2 thess and the rapture are "during the trib"??

    I'm lost here as to exactly what you're saying. :confused: :confused:
     
  8. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Genesis12: //Why am I in this forum debating
    instead of lifting up the Name of Jesus in the public square?//

    Uh, this is the cyber form of the 'public square'.
     
  9. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    And you can be "arrested" for "deesturbing the peace". [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  10. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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  11. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    Me4Him,

    You wonder what I mean by writing to Ed Edwards:

    "Sure, you can say it is a literal `departure'.
    But a Departure of the False Church (Babylon
    the Great) from the `midst' of world power as
    `ruler over the kings of earth' is much more
    in line with the Apocalyptic Endtime than the
    Departure of the TRUE Church".
    _____________________________________________

    You asked:

    "Are you saying 2 thess and the rapture are `during the trib'?? I'm lost here as to exactly what you're saying".
    _______________________________________________

    I also wrote:

    "The appointed time for the removal of the Apostasy (the failed restrainer of terrorism because of her fornications) is when God will
    "put into the minds of these ten kings to give their power and authority to the Beast".
    Rev.17:6-18.
    ______________________________________________

    Only since the 1940's has anyone ever suggested
    that the Church must "depart" from earth to
    heaven before Antichrist can be revealed. The
    context of 2 Thess.2 has to do with the "mystery
    of lawlessness" that will eventually culminate in the MAN OF LAWLESSNESS.

    But before her fall, Mystery Babylon will
    commit the "fornications" that lead to God's judgment through Ten Kings who "destroy her by fire in one hour".

    That judgment will not occur until the midst of Daniel's 70th Seven when the Ten Kings "give their power and authority to the Beast" so that he can rule the world for the Endtime of 42 months. Antichrist's rule does not cover 7 years.

    There is nothing in Scripture that requires
    the Antichrist to be "revealed" before God's Judgment "removes" the final "restrainer" of
    "lawlessness" (terrorism). It is true that he
    will be among the Ten Kings and will "subdue
    three of them," but being only "one of MANY"
    who confirm Daniel's 70th Seven's Covenant does
    NOT mean the Antichrist will be revealed when
    he agrees to the Covenent.

    Babylon must be "removed" after committing the
    final APOSTASY before Antichrist is revealed.
    Ed Edwards assumes the APOSTASY is a removal
    of the TRUE church when it actually calls for
    the removal of the FALSE church so the AC
    may "take peace from the earth". Rev.6:3-4.

    There can be found no Church teaching that true believers constitute the APOSTASY. The word is
    a noun of "condition"; not a verb of "action"!!

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net
     
  12. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    The "Restrainer" is the "Holy Ghost", "HE" is the "ONLY ONE" who is "in the world" and "Greater" than Satan.

    1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is "HE" (HG) that is in you, than he that is in the world.

    OT saints didn't have a "Comforter" (Holy Ghost) and neither will they during the trib, this is why "POWER" is on the side of Israel's "Oppressor", the AC, right now he is on the side of the church, and the reason why satan can "NEVER" "PREVAIL" over the church Saints.

    Ec 4:1 So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter.

    Re 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

    Mt 16:18 I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
     
  13. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    Me4Him,

    You wrote:
    The "Restrainer" is the "Holy Ghost", "HE" is the "ONLY ONE" who is "in the world"
    and "Greater" than Satan.
    ______________________________________________

    Well, I see no reason why the Holy Spirit will
    or should be "removed" from the world in order for AC to be revealed.

    The context is talking about the mystery of
    Lawlessness and how its final culmination will
    be made possible by the "removal" of that
    which "restrains" evil forces.

    Neither the Church nor the Holy Spirit will be
    removed when God "puts into the minds of ten
    kings to give their power and authority to the
    Beast" as the personified Lawless One to come.

    The Church will continue on earth until every
    one "who must be killed is killed" and then
    God will avenge the blood of the Saints. Rev.
    6:9-11. Every one of these Martyrs, seen in
    heaven just prior to the first resurrection,
    will be "washed in the blood of the Lamb" and
    will be included with those "God brings with
    Jesus" at the sound of the Last Trump, the 7th
    Trumpet ... when it sounds for the third time.

    Mystery Babylon the Great "must rule the kings
    of earth a short time" before the Beast that
    "carried her IS NOT and yet comes up from the
    Abyss" at the mid-point of Daniel's 70th Seven.

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net
     
  14. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    Where in Gal. 2 or Acts 15 do they have a handshake agreement they will teach diffeent Gospels?

    </font>[/QUOTE]
    It is in Galatians 2:7-9, "But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; 8. (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:) 9. And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision." We are to believe what The Word tells us. We find the same thing in Acts 15 when we take time to study His word.
    I don't deny what Paul says, but we must understand what he says, just as in the Galatians and Acts above references.

    You show the two verses, so what do you make of them. What were the Jews accusing Paul of?
    In our study we are to know the "who-when-where-what-why and how" if we are to understand His Word. Is Paul speaking here to Gentiles, or to Jews. If you will reread Acts 9:15 you will see Paul is informed He is commissioned and made an "hand picked" Apostle by the authority of Christ Jesus as He sits on the right hand of His Father. Christ Jesus says"…. to bear my name before Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel." Here Paul is doing what Christ said he would do with His people. Here He is talking to his people, and a "king". I do believe Christ knew what He was talking about. This is of design and not chance.

    The Jew is a "hard sell". Paul had the very toughest of jobs. He preached to the Jew of what was "prophesied" and 'would happen", but also endeavored to show them they could be in the "Body of Christ", as are the Gentiles, and this was New. The Old was to pass away. However his is a specific "dispensational" gospel (Ephesians, chapter 3). Paul was not a member of the "Pentecostal" church of the Jew in Jerusalem. He was of the "Christian" church of the "Gentile and the Jew" of Antioch. The Christian is not under "law of their ordinances". We are under Grace. Paul tells King Agrippa he did not change a word of scripture of the "prophets and Moses" of what was prophesied, of that known of what would happen.

    In Acts 2:22 Peter is preaching to those of the "covenant" gospel of the "kingdom is at hand" addressing them as "Ye men of Israel, hear these words". Peter had never, just as Jesus never preached a gospel to Gentile. We find the "gospel of the circumcision" in this chapter, viz. in verse 2:38. Acts 2:37-39, "Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38. Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." And "all that are afar off" are of Israel for Peter identifies to whom he is speaking in verse 22, and the men of Israel in verse 37 reference only themselves. This is the gospel of those that make "blood covenant" with God, and they mustbelieve and obey the gospels of John the Baptist of "repent and be baptized for the remission of their sins".

    Is this the Baptist belief of how we are saved? Some evidently believe so for they do believe they must preach the "great commission".

    But there are other Baptists that don't believe this, and for good reason. They, as I, don't plan on inheriting the "kingdom promised the Jew". We look for the "rapture" as we are in the Body of Christ in His kingdom, and not that of the "kingdom" He gave to His Apostles, "And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me", Luke 22:29.

    So what is the "Christian" gospel of the "Body of Christ Church"? It is not of a "nation" but individuals. We notice above the wording is "what must we do", as a nation to make possible the "kingdom to come", for the gospel of John the Baptist is of "the kingdom is at hand".

    Our Christian message is very plain and to the point and of the "power to save" instantly. Acts 16:28-31, "But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here. 29. Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, 30. And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31. And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."

    I see two gospels above, and I know in whom I believe, and that is Christ Jesus from heaven, as this is the gospel to me a Gentile, for while on earth He said He didn't come for me, a heathen dog. I come to Him as He offers me the gift, for it is so much better than being a "proselyte" of the Jewish faith, and to be their "slave" in eternity.

    [ April 28, 2006, 06:26 AM: Message edited by: ituttut ]
     
  15. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    The "Holy Ghost" is the "Comforter", the "voice of Jesus", the "SON"

    The "Holy Spirit" is the "Voice of God", the "Father".

    Jesus, as Jesus, didn't speak in the OT, they didn't have a "Comforter", God the father spoke through the "law and Prophets" and the Holy Spirit, not "Holy Ghost".

    Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

    2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,

    Ec 4:1 So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter.

    Israel won't hear/obey the "voice of Jesus", they rejected him, so Jesus became a "Stumbling block" to Israel causing them to be blind until Jesus stops speaking (rapture) and the "Father" (Holy Spirit) starts speaking again through the "law and Prophets", The "Two witnesses", Moses/Elijah. (Trib period)

    The "TRINITY" explains the scriptures.


    1. The Church is Indwelled by the Comforter.
    first Corinthian 3 16,
    Know ye not that ye are the temple of God,
    and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

    1A. Israel was not, will not, be indwelled by the Comforter.
    Ecclesiastics 4 1,
    behold the tears of such as were oppressed,
    and they had no comforter.


    2. Because of the Holy Ghost presents, power is on the side of the Church.
    first John 4 4,
    because greater is HE that is in you, than he that is in the world

    2A. Because Jews had no comforter, power was on the side of their “oppressor”, Satan.
    Ecclesiastics 4 1,
    and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter.


    3. Because of the presents of the Holy Ghost, Satan must Flee from Church Saints.
    James 4 7,
    Resist the devil, and he will flee from you

    3A. with no comforter, Satan attacks Saints during the tribulations.
    Revelations 12 17,
    And the dragon was wroth with the woman,
    and went to make war with the remnant of her seed,


    4. Satan can never prevail against the Church Saints.
    Matthew 16 18,
    I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

    4A. However Satan does prevail against the Tribulation Saints.
    Daniel 7 21,
    I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;


    5. The Church battles against Satan “Spiritually”.
    Ephesian 6 12,
    For we wrestle not against flesh and blood,
    but against principalities, against powers,
    against the rulers of the darkness of this world,
    against spiritual wickedness in high places.

    5A. Israel will physically Battle against Satan.
    Revelations 13 7,
    And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them:


    6. The Rod and Staff are comfort to the church.
    Psalms 23 4,
    thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

    6A. the Rod and Staff are “Great Tribulations” to Israel.
    Isaiah 10 5,
    O Assyrian, the ROD of mine anger,
    and the STAFF in their hand is mine indignation.


    7. The church dies spiritually, presenting their bodies a living sacrifice to God.
    Romans 12 1,
    that ye presents your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God,

    7A. Israel will die literally, presenting their dead bodies as a sacrifice.
    Revelations 12 11,
    And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb,
    and they loved not their lifes unto the death.
    Revelations 6 9,
    And when he had opened the fifth seal,
    I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God,
     
  16. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    Me4Him,

    What saints will Satan overcome during the
    great tribulation? Believers, Israel or both?

    You admit that Satan will overcome Israel.
    You then say the church dies "spiritually",
    but only Israel will die "literally":

    Quote:
    ______________________________________________
    4A. However Satan does prevail against the Tribulation Saints. Daniel 7:21, "I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them".

    7A. Israel will die literally, presenting their dead bodies as a sacrifice. Revelations 12:11,
    "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb,
    and they loved not their lifes unto the death".
    _______________________________________________

    Please explain who dies physically and belongs only to Israel having been "washed in the blood of the Lamb" if, as you say, the Church dies
    "spiritually" and Israel dies "literally"???

    You claim Israel "literally" dies for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ:

    Revelations 6:9,
    "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God and for the
    testimony which they held".
    _______________________________________________

    You evidently think Israel is NOT the church in heaven after coming out of the great tribulation because they literally suffer death on earth; while the Church only suffers "spiritual" death.

    What Holy-Spirit's "private interpretation" is this that limits physical death to the Saints of Israel being found in heaven during the great
    tribulation but not to the Saints who belong to the Church?

    How can you have some Saints (of Israel) coming with the Son of Man in Dan.7:27 and yet deny that "ALL the Saints come with Christ" in I Thess.3:13?????

    IMO your teaching produces total confusion.

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net
     
  17. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    Let me quote John Gill:

    they saw that the Gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the Gospel of the circumcision was to Peter; by "the uncircumcision and circumcision" are meant the Gentiles and Jews; see Rom_2:26 by the Gospel of the one, and the Gospel of the other, two Gospels are not designed, for there is but one Gospel, and not another. Paul did not preach one Gospel unto the uncircumcised Gentiles, and Peter another to the circumcised Jews; but the same Gospel was preached by both, and is so called with respect to the different persons to whom it was preached by these apostles. The Apostle Paul was ordained a minister of the Gentiles, and he chiefly preached among them, though not to them only. Peter was principally employed among the Jews, though also as he had opportunity he sometimes preached to the Gentiles: however, the subject of both their ministrations was the Gospel , which is said to be "committed" to them, as a trust deposited in their hands, not by man, but by God; the management of which required both prudence and faithfulness, and which were eminently seen in these good stewards of the mysteries of God. This being observed by the apostles at Jerusalem, they came into an agreement that one part should discharge their ministry among the Gentiles, and the other among the Jews.


    If there are two Gospels, are there two plans of salvation? Were there two Gospels prophesized in the Old Testament?

    Act 24:5 For we have found this man pestilent, and moving rebellion among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes,
    Act 24:6 who also attempted to profane the temple, whom we took and would have judged according to our Law.


    If Paul was preaching what the prophets spoke of and Paul is accused of preaching a different Gospel, then what Gospel were James,Peter and John preaching?

    Yet it is Peter who says this:

    1Pe 1:9 obtaining the end of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
    1Pe 1:10 About which salvation the prophets sought out and searched out, prophesying concerning the grace for you;
    1Pe 1:11 searching for what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ made clear within them, testifying beforehand of the sufferings of Christ, and the glories that should follow.
    1Pe 1:12 To them it was revealed that not to themselves, but to us, they ministered the things which are now reported to you by those who have preached the gospel to you in the Holy Spirit sent from Heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

    Act 3:24 And also all the prophets from Samuel and those following after, as many as spoke, have likewise foretold of these days

    Peter is claiming the prophets spoke of this grace as well. Now we have both Peter and Paul claiming to teach what the prophets spoke of.

    They are all on the same page:

    Act 15:12 And all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring what miracles and wonders God had worked among the nations through them.
    Act 15:13 And after they were silent, James answered, saying, Men, brothers, listen to me.
    Act 15:14 Even as Simon has declared how God at the first visited the nations to take out of them a people for His name.
    Act 15:15 And the words of the Prophets agree to this; as it is written ,

    Act 15:16 "After this I will return and will build again the tabernacle of David which has fallen down; and I will build again its ruins, and I will set it up,
    Act 15:17 so those men who are left might seek after the Lord, and all the nations on whom My name has been called, says the Lord, who does all these things."

    It was in the fulfillment of the OT prophets words that salvation would come to both Jew and Gentile. It seems clear that James, Paul, Barnabus and Peter all agree, there is only one Gospel message.

    When you claim there are two Gospels, it leads one to believe there are also two plans of salvation. One way for the Jews and another way for the Gentiles. Is this your view?
     
  18. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    "IN CHRIST", there is neither Greek/Gentile/Jews, but to get "IN CHRIST", the Jews go through the trib, they're not "in christ" until after they are saved.
    Jesus returns with "all his saints", OT, church and trib saints.


    Isa 61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness,

    Re 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

    Jesus asked:

    Mr 10:38 can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?

    39 Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:

    That "CUP" was the one he asked to let pass from him if possible in the garden, his crucifixion.

    The church drinks of that cup "Spiritually", when the old man is crucified, Israel will "literaly" drinks of that cup by literally being crucified/murdered.

    In other words they will literally "wash their robes of flesh" in blood, their own blood, to be saved.

    Re 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

    This is all posted at the link I gave, read it.
     
  19. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    Me4Him,

    Again you fail to address the question. I asked
    how you can have Israel in heaven during the
    tribulation if they "literally die while the
    Church only dies spiritually". It makes no sense!

    Quote:
    ________________________________________________
    7A. Israel will die literally, presenting their dead bodies as a sacrifice. Revelations 12:11,
    "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb,
    and they loved not their lifes unto the death".
    _______________________________________________
    I asked:
    Please explain why only Israel dies physically having been "washed in the blood of the Lamb" if, as you say, the Church dies "spiritually" and Israel dies "literally"???

    You claim Israel "literally" dies for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ:

    Revelations 6:9,
    "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held".

    Now You Explain this by stating:
    Quote:_________________________________________
    "IN CHRIST, there is neither Gentile/Jews, but to get IN CHRIST, the Jews go through the trib, they're not "in christ" until after they are saved".________________________________________

    This does not answer how you can claim Israel
    "literally" dies and are found under the altar in heaven having been washed in the blood of the
    Lamb. You claim the Jews must go back under the
    Law during the great tribulation before they
    can be "in christ"!

    And you exclude the Church saints from being under the Altar; and seek to sidestep the truth by claiming the Church only dies "spiritually". That is not an explanation of why Church saints do not enter heaven nor "come out of the great tribulation" after your phony Pre-Trib Rapture.

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net
     
  20. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

    Joined:
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    It's all explained here, there's too much to retype.

    http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3398.html#000000
     
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