Eph 1:5

No RC is right. You are the one resting Eph 1:4 from its context- that is addressing believers, and applying it to the Apostles. You sound like you let your preconcieved ideas dictate how you interpret Scripture isntead of letting them say what they say.

 

Hello 4His_glory.

Wes has no option but to twist this otherwise he would need to submit to John Calvin! HaHa! A simple statement that believers are chosen before the world began doesn't help Arminians very much!

john.

 

I have heard Arminians argue this passage differntly, and though I don't agree with them, more soundly than wes does. I have never heard anyone rip this passage from its context like Wes has. But he has told me he does not use a litteral hermenutic, and he is a relativist.

 

No RC is right. You are the one resting Eph 1:4 from its context- that is addressing believers, and applying it to the Apostles. You sound like you let your preconcieved ideas dictate how you interpret Scripture isntead of letting them say what they say. </font>[/QUOTE]I did not say that Paul is addressing the Apostles in Ephesians, I said that Paul is speaking OF the apostles in ephesians 1:3-12, who were chosen in Christ from the Foundation of the world. The Apostles are the Elect of Ephesians 1:3-12. The evidence of the validity of that is contained in John 17, Jesus prayer for his Apostles whom the Father had given to him.

Paul is telling the Ephesians about the foundation of Christianity, God's plan of Salvation. In doing so, he is starting at the beginning, the 3 1/2 years that the Apostles were taught by God (the son).

Then, in 13 and 14 He tells the Ephesians that they too, through their hearing and believing have come to place their trust in the same God the Son that the Apostles have their faith in and that the Ephesians are therefore part of the church, part of the Body of Christ, and part of the Bride of Christ, Sealed by the Holy Spirit.

 

Wes has no option but to twist this otherwise he would need to submit to John Calvin! HaHa! A simple statement that believers are chosen before the world began doesn't help Arminians very much!

john. </font>[/QUOTE]You'll be long dead and cold in the grave before you are notified the wes even considers submitting to Calvin. That's like submitting to the devil himself, and that simply cannot happen.

 

And I did not say that you were claiming that Paul was addressing the Apostles in Eph, I said that you were APPLYING this passage to the Apostles when Paul is addressing belivers and speaking to them about THEIR salvation- including elcetion.

 

I do not accept Ephesians 1:5 as a stand alone scripture. It is in its proper context in verses 3 through 12. It is 3 through 12 that form a complete thought!

 

Well good then, you see it is not talking about the Apostles, but believers then.

 

Hello the wes

HaHa! How do you know that I will be notified in my grave? Not in touch with the spirit realm are you? Tell em to knock loud man. Who says I'm dying before you?

I thought that would wind you up. Forgive me it was an idle moment. True though.

john.

 

As you should understand by now, I completely disagree with you. Paul is writing to the believers in Ephesus, explaining to them God's Plan of salvation. beginning with the Church in the Apostles who were God's elect for that purpose. A Plan that was established before the foundation of the world, and Apostles who were chosen in the Christ from before the foundation of the world.

No, I don't expect you to agree because you are CALVINIZED!

 

Pronouns INCLUDE the ones talked to Wes... If it were OF the apostles, the apostles MUST BE in the text... they are not.

You also WRONGLY misunderstand verse 13. The "ALSO" doesn't imply that He is now including the Ephesians but it means in ADDITION TO. It can easily be better understood as being translated EVEN.

He is ADDING onto what he was already saying about them not INCLUDING what they weren't.... BAD exegesis Wes, bad.

 

rc,were the Ephesians the one's who put their hopes in the Christ before he came?

"And now you too"...Who? "have heard the message of truth and the gospel of your salvation"....What? weren't they the ones who put their hopes in the Christ before he came? Why did they have to hear the message from the apostle before they believed in the Christ?

 

Did you read the PROPER exegesis on the grammar?
It doesn't say "you TOO" it is ALSO. As i.e. you believe this and ALSO this. It is inclusive.

And the text (Greek) does NOT say we put our hope in Christ BEFORE HE CAME. Bad, bad translation.

so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.

If you ask anybody today who were the "first to hope" in Christ I would say a majority of people would say "The Church's listed in the Bible". Safe assumption. Ephesus was one of the first to hope in Christ. Again the WE links to who Paul is talking TO! You can't get around grammar Wes. You are wrong.

 

rc, I may not understand the Greek or Hebrew languages as you claim you do, but your statement clearly rebukes the translators of these versions of the original texts, which makes your statement VERY BOLD, indeed.

Clearly, the Ephesians are not included in those who first hoped in the Christ, and NEITHER ARE WE!

Can you acknowledge that?

 

Did you not UNDERSTAND what I said? THe WE includes the Ephesians. They WHERE along with the WHOLE church. They were the FIRST GENERATION of believers for crying out loud! You are basing your understanding on the "New Jerusalem" version? That is one of the worst translations ever !! Note that all the others say first to believe not first to believe BEFORE CHRIST? That doesn't even make sense. NO one at the time believed in Jesus BEFORE Jesus was there! That's silly. Paul is saying WE are the first to believe in Christ. That's all. But the PRINCIPLE remains.... BECAUSE THEY WERE CHOSEN BEFORE TIME BEGAN.

You are fighting with grammar Wes, not with me, Larry, or even Paul or any other Arminians for that matter. You are arguing against common grammatical sense.

I will not and encourage everyone else on this forum not to reply to this nonsense any longer.

 

NO! The ephesians were not first generation believers! The Apostles alone were the first generation believers. The Ephesians were taught by the Apostles, not by God the son!

The Ephesians were first century of the church believers, but not first generation!

Grabbin at straws rc? every one of those translations excludes the Ephesians, and all other gentiles.

I've showed you in John 1:40,41 where the Apostles ANTICIPATED THE ADVENT OF THE CHRIST, before the Christ was revealed to them.

I have showed you in John 17 where Jesus identifies the Apostles as having been given to him (elected for the purpose) by God the Father "who owned them". Jesus identifies them as being the first to believe in Him, thus they are the first generation believers.

The JEWS as a race of people believed that a Messiah would come to them, many JEWS still await the first coming because they rejected the Christ.

NO GENTILES ever anticipated or believed in a messiah, because that was strictly a Jewish belief. It was not until the Apostles who were taught by God, taught the Gentiles, that the gentiles had any knowledge of a Messiah, or Christ.

Why don't you know these things?

 

I do know them. But I also understand them. This is the difference between you and I. I have gone to school. Took the time to learn the language. Put down my presuppositions and bias and LEARNED from people that where accomplished recognized professors. I learned the history of the church. I have acknowledged the orthodox teachings that have been handed down FROM the apostles... The student is NEVER greater than his Teacher Wes.... maybe one day you'll understand that. Until you do, you will continue to embarrass yourself.

 

I am not embarrassed in the least except for you, oh learned one, who had your beliefs formed for you from a prescribed agenda. You were guided by those "accomplished recognized professors", Nicodemus's if you will, who lacked knowledge and passed on that lack of knowledge to their students in favor of discecting the language.

I understand that from Jesus perspective, not from academia's perspective. I am not bound by the rules that you are bound by! I am free to receive the message from the word of God as the Holy Spirit illuminates it to me.

One day you'll understand that. Until you do, you will continue to look down your nose at all who have not "received the benefit of accomplished recognized professors".

 

I am free to receive the message from the word of God as the Holy Spirit illuminates it to me.

There's a way that seems right unto a man, and the ends thereof is DEATH.

KJV 2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Some people's reply to Paul... No way man! I don't need your ACADEMIA or your traditions. I just need Jesus!

 

The teaching is by word, or Paul's letters!

Matthew, Mark, Luke and John bring us the Gospel of Jesus, Paul's letters teach us to live the Christian life. It does not take an "accomplished recognized professor" to teach us what the scriptures clearly teach those who read them for themselves as I do.

The one's in peril are those who attend church, occupy a pew, listen to a "learned Pastor" then don't open the bible outside of the church.

You won't find me in that group.