1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Ephesians 2

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by agedman, Nov 24, 2019.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    8,737
    Likes Received:
    717
    Faith:
    Baptist
    1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

    4But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

    11Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

    13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.
     
  2. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2019
    Messages:
    1,195
    Likes Received:
    191
    Faith:
    Baptist
    From verse 12:
    "strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world."

    Here Paul expresses the covenantal promise of the Redeemer, which Jews thought was only for their nation. But, Paul let's us know that the covenants of the Promised Redeemer is for all whom God saves.
    Paul uses another great conjunction...But...to express God's universal outreach to save.

    "But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility."
    ~ Ephesians 2:13-16

    I love how Christ breaks down cultural barriers and prejudice.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    13,242
    Likes Received:
    196
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Ephesians 2:1 demonstrates that Ephesians 1:4 refers to a corporate election rather than an individual (or foreseen individual) election. Who can bring a charge against God's elect? No one, not even Paul, can because it is God who justifies. (Romans 8:33) Therefore the people of Ephesians 2:1 were not elect at that time. Our individual election for salvation occurs during our lifetime after we had been "dead in our trespasses and sins."
     
  4. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    8,225
    Likes Received:
    1,061
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It is God who elects individually, whom in the following verse does not imply corporate election... If it was corporate the writer would have used the word those... Not to this Old Line Sovereign Grace Baptist brother it doesn't... Brother Glen:)

    Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

    8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    8,737
    Likes Received:
    717
    Faith:
    Baptist
    1) The "us (all, each, every)" of Ephesians 1:3 is not about "corporate election" but about the forceful character and condition of the elected.
    Where you desire it to be inclusive by regrouping into a corporate, the message of the "us" is that it is specifically forced character and conditions that are indicators of the personal selection and that such selection is of all are on the same character and condition indicators.

    Therefore, the election is to specific individuals according to the criteria of God and not some nebulous corporate grouping. It is therefore, foreseen individual election.

    2) There is no "us" in verse 4 but that which was inserted into the text to allow the English more flow.

    The verse could have easily have been rendered without the us. "Selected before the laying of order" would work just as well.

    The people of Ephesians 2 were most certainly selected, individually, and as the fourth verse states, prior to the organization of the world took place - at the announcement (imo) of "let there be Light."
     
  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    13,242
    Likes Received:
    196
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I am sorry Tyndale 1946, but I believe the view you were taught is bogus. Just read the above passage again. To whom does the whom refer to in verse 28? To them who are called, to them who love God. Thus not foreseen individuals, who have not lived, but individuals who have lived, accepted the call and love God.

    Foreknow refers to information acquired or formulated in the past (when God formulated His redemption plan) which had as its target group (corporate) believers chosen by God. The redemption plan included that those chosen and placed in Christ would be conformed to the image of His Son. And (verse 30) the plan is being carried out, thus God has called believers who love God, placed them in Christ where they were justified, and glorified.

    All scripture fits together perfectly with this view. Individual Election before creation is precluded by Ephesians 2 and Romans 8. 1 Peter 2:9-10 says we lived without mercy before we obtained mercy, lived not as a people before we became His people and therefore alse excludes before creation individual election.
     
  7. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    4,742
    Likes Received:
    167
    God has no need to “acquire” information. He has always known everything there is to know.

    Foreknow means to know in a relationship.

    Peace to you
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    13,242
    Likes Received:
    196
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I am also sorry the view you were taught is bogus. Recall the story where Isaac was put on the alter and the knife was raise and God said "now I know?" To use your understanding of an attribute of God to nullify a verse is unsound. I am sure you have read the argument, since God is love He would not send people to eternal punishment. Same bogus use of a misunderstood attribute to nullify a verse or passage.

    Foreknow refers to information acquired or formulated in the past being utilized in the present.
    Recall how Paul told people who knew him when he was a youth, that they could testify Paul was raised as a Pharisee? Same word. Or how Christ was put to death by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God? Do your own word study.
     
  9. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    8,737
    Likes Received:
    717
    Faith:
    Baptist
    In this presentation, God is presented as blind and ignorant. He doesn't know individuals who He called, and doesn't know their response. He doesn't have prophetic passages dealing with future leaders who have yet to have been born. He doesn't call prior to conception anywhere in Scriptures. He doesn't love any yet unborn to prepare for them.

    "I'm sorry Van, but believe the view you (teach) is bogus."

    Some have a God that is limited in sight, limited in knowledge, and limited in planning.

    God had to "formulate his redemption plan."

    God had to have a "target group."

    God had to have certain required inclusions and exclusions.

    But mostly, God didn't really know all, didn't perceive all, did not specifically plan all, but left a lot up for dust to work out.

    Nope, the view you present is flawed. It is imperfect, and does not conform to Scripture no matter how many times you present it.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  10. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    8,737
    Likes Received:
    717
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Therefore, God is not all knowing.

    He is so unaware, sparrows can fall, hairs go unnumbered, stars unaccounted for,...

    Van, "I am also sorry the view you were taught (teach) is bogus."

    Amazing how according to this poster "foreknow" is limiting the ability of God to know all, know everything concerning the impact and the effect by the all.

    Amazing how that the poster applies human constraints to God.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  11. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    4,345
    Likes Received:
    103
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Ever think about how much Calvinism limits God? Calvinism limits the Atonement. Limits election to a preselect few. Limits God's love. Limits man in his choices so that he cannot believe. I do not believe God is limited not even to His own will.There are many things I'm sure God could do but doesn't, because of His great LOVE.
    MB
     
  12. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    8,737
    Likes Received:
    717
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Again, you are painting with a wide brush.

    Such limits are not placed by Calvin only.

    ALL scheme's, except for the "pelagian" scheme, present such limits established upon election, upon the death and resurrection, upon man's choices, humankind "freedom" of the will. This is why such non-biblical presentations as "preceding/prevenient grace" are conjured by humans. They desire God to be what God is not.

    God made His best offer to humankind. WE use that in terms of "desire all men to be saved." Yet, our human term "desire" is not applicable to God, for God has no such need, He is never presented in the Scriptures as needy.

    But uses the human expression as a tool to communicate to the limited human understanding.

    That you do not present such as a factor of ALL schemes, your focus upon one is distorted.
     
  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    13,242
    Likes Received:
    196
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yet another taint so post, full of nonsense and misrepresentations. This is all they have folks, fabrications of deflection.
     
  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    13,242
    Likes Received:
    196
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yet another taint so post of nonsense and misrepresentations. God is all knowing. Did I say God was not all knowing? Nope so yet another deflection fabrication. On and on, folks, on and on.
     
  15. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    8,737
    Likes Received:
    717
    Faith:
    Baptist
    According to Van, his all knowing God must “acquire” information and the information has to be “formulated” to use in the present.

    Yep, Van truthfully represents God as all knowing.
     
  16. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2018
    Messages:
    1,071
    Likes Received:
    307
    Faith:
    Baptist
    ... or all men are born fallen and the elect are “quickened” at “just the right time”.

    Your conclusion is a valid interpretation, but it is not the only possible interpretation.
     
  17. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    2,190
    Likes Received:
    456
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Ephesians 2 is describing, in great detail, those that the Lord had chosen "in Him" before the foundation of the world in the previous chapter:

    " And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
    2 wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
    3 among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
    4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
    5 even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
    6 and hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
    7 that in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
    9 not of works, lest any man should boast.
    10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
    " ( Ephesians 2:1-10 ).

    In verse 1, he tells them that they were dead in trespasses and sins.
    Then he tells them what they did before...they walked according to the course ( ways ) of this world...according to Satan's ways, who is the spirit that works in his own children, the children of disobedience ( contrary to the children of God who are the children of obedience, see Matthew 7:21, John 14:15, John 14:21, 1 John 5:3 and others. ).

    Verse 3 tells us that the Ephesians, including Paul as "we", all had their "conversation" ( manner of life ) in times past in the lusts of their flesh...fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and they were, by nature ( they had the same corrupt heart, or nature ), the children of wrath even as others are.
    Verse 4 tells them that God, who is rich in mercy and for His great love that He loved them...
    Verse 5: Even when they were dead in trespasses and sins, has quickened them ( made them alive ) together with Christ...and reminds them that they are saved by grace.
    Verse 6: ..and has raised them together and made them to sit in the heavenlies "in" Christ Jesus.
    Verse 7: Why? So that in the ages to come, He might show the exceeding riches of His grace, in kindness, towards them through Christ Jesus.
    Verse 8: He then reminds them again, and really focuses in on it: For by grace they are saved through faith, and that faith was not "of" themselves, but was the gift of God. ( Take out the semi-colon after "faith" and read it in one flowing sentence. )
    Verse 9: That gift of faith ( agrees with Philippians 1:29 and others ) was not of works, lest any man should boast.
    Verse 10: He finally tells them that all of them are God's workmanship, created "in" Christ Jesus to do good works, which God had before-ordained ( Greek, "προετοιμάζω", "makes ready beforehand" ) that they should walk in ( perform ) them.


    I hope that the above is of some value.
    If not, please quote the passage above and break it down as I have done to show how you disagree with me.:)
     
    #17 Dave Gilbert, Dec 2, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2019
  18. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    2,190
    Likes Received:
    456
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The one I learned by strictly reading God's word is developed in Jeremiah 1:5, as well as Psalms 139 and other places.

    It's a relationship, and a loving one.;)
     
  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    13,242
    Likes Received:
    196
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yet another false claim, because God makes plans. God said "Now I know." When you make a plan, you "formulate" a plan. On and on folks, on and on they spew nonsense nonstop.
     
  20. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    13,242
    Likes Received:
    196
    Faith:
    Baptist
    How could we be chosen individually before creation, and not be a people of God? Impossible.

    Next, we are "quickened" (made alive, regenerated) together with Christ, thus after we have been chosen for salvation and placed in Christ.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...