1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Esau I have Loved Less

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by SavedByGrace, Mar 19, 2024.

  1. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,149
    Likes Received:
    440
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Esau I have Loved Less

    This verse in Romans 9:13, is one that is much used, or rather, misused, by some of the so called "reformed", to try to “prove”, that while God LOVES only the ELECT, He actually HATES the NON-ELECT.

    Not only does Paul not mean this, as is very clear in the passage, and the use of the Greek word for “hate”; but, Scripture actually shows, that God BLESSED Esau, and PROTECTED his descendants!

    The Amplified Bible reads exactly what the Greek in the context is actually saying:

    “As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated (held in relative disregard in comparison with My feeling for Jacob). [Mal. 1:2, 3.]”

    And, the Contemporary English Version, published by the American Bible Society:

    “That's why the Scriptures say that the Lord liked Jacob more than Esau”

    And, the New Living Translation:

    “In the words of the Scriptures, “I loved Jacob, but I rejected Esau”

    In the first place, the actual context that Paul here quotes from Malachi 1:2-3, is clear:

    “(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” – NASB

    It is clear, that it is God’s “eklogḗ”, that is, “CHOICE, or SELECTION, or PREFERENCE, that “The older shall serve the younger”. That is Esau, who was the First-Born, who by wickedness, sold his “Birth Right”, was to SERVE his younger twin, Jacob. NOTHING in this CONTEXT, speaks of SALVATION!

    Paul says at the start of verse 13, AS IT IS WRITTEN, which is quoting the passage in Malachi, for the purpose of showing what this “hate” really means, God PREFERRING Jacob over Esau, who was clearly a wicked person.

    Secondly, it is absurd to argue from the passage in Romans, that Paul is saying that God actually HATED Esau, as in to DETEST him. It is very clear from other teachings in the Bible, that, when we have LOVE as contrasted with HATE, that no more than PREFERENCE is meant.

    In Genesis 29:31, we read of Leah, “And when the LORD saw that Leah was hated” (KJV), and verse 33, “Because the LORD hath heard that I was hated”. The Hebrew word is “sânêʼ”, which is the same word used in Malachi 1:3, “but I have hated Esau”. The LXX uses the Greek word “miséō”, which is used for “sânêʼ”. Paul uses this word in Romans 9:13. English Versions like the NASB, HCSB, NKJV, NLT, use “UNLOVED”, in the passage in Genesis, and the NIV, ERV, BBE, “NOT LOVED”, etc. Showing that the Hebrew and Greek does not always have the meaning “HATE”.

    In Luke 14:26, Jesus says, “If any man come to Me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple” (KJV). Same Greek word is used here, “miséō”. In Matthew’s account, it reads different, “He that loveth father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me” (10:37).

    Jesus makes this point in John 21, where He says to Peter:

    “So when they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love Me more than these?" He said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I love You." He said to him, "Tend My lambs” (verse 15, see to verse 17)

    When Jesus says to Peter, “do you love Me MORE than these”, He uses the highest Greek word for LOVE (agapáō, “to esteem one highly). When Peter says, “You know that I love You”, he uses the Greek, “philéō”, which is, “dear to”. The emphasis here is “pleíōn” (more than), which is used of HIGHER degree.

    God says that we are not to HATE anyone, “Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer” (1 John 3:15), where the Greek for HATE is the same as in Romans 9:13.

    Thirdly, it is clear from the context of Malachi, where we read, “But Esau I have hated” (1:3), that Esau here is not referring to the person, but rather, to his descendants, “the Edomites”, as verse 4 goes on to say, “Even though Edom has said”. The Prophecy in this passage of the doom of the Edomites, is recorded as fulfilled in history as in 1 Maccabees 5:65; and by John Hyrcanus; see Joseph Antiquities, Book. 13 c. 9. s. 1.

    Fourthly, we read in Genesis 27:39, Isaac speaking to Esau;

    “Then Isaac his father answered and said to him: "Behold, your dwelling shall be of the fatness of the earth, And of the dew of heaven from above”

    Which is a BLESSING pronounced on Esau, by God, through Isaac! IF, as some argue, that God HATES/DETESTS the person Esau, when God would not have BLESSED him! In verse 28, we read of the BLESSING Isaac pronounces on Jacob;

    “Therefore may God give you Of the dew of heaven, Of the fatness of the earth, And plenty of grain and wine” (NKJV, KJV)

    Clearly Jacob’s BLESSING is MORE than that of Esau, which is what is meant by, “Esau I have loved LESS”.

    Some English Versions have tried to make the BLESSING of Esau, into a CURSE, by MISTRANSLATING the Hebrew to read

    “Then Isaac his father answered and said to him: “Behold, away from the fatness of the earth shall your dwelling be, and away from the dew of heaven on high” (ESV)

    In BOTH verses we have the SAME Hebrew preposition “min”, which is correctly translated in Versions like the KJV, as “OF”, as a BLESSING. This is the reading of all of the English Versions before the KJV (Coverdale, Bishops, Geneva, Great). There is no justification in the Hebrew, to make the SAME preposition “partitive”, in verse 28, and “privative”, in verse 39, other than for “theology”!

    The Greek Old Testament, the Septuagint (LXX), the Old Syriac, Latin Vulgate, read as the KJV.

    Fifthly, we read in Deuteronomy, “You shall not abhor an Edomite, for he is your brother. You shall not abhor an Egyptian, because you were an alien in his land”

    God comments the Israelites not to ABHOR the descendants of Esau. The Hebrew word used here, “taw-ab'”, is stronger than the HATE in Malachi 1:3, which is “sânêʼ”

    This is clear that God did indeed BLESS Esau and his descendants, even though they were wicked.

    The evidence as I have shown, is very clear, that when we read of God HATING Esau, it is to be understood as LOVE LESS, or BLESS LESS, than Jacob.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  2. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    19,543
    Likes Received:
    2,886
    Faith:
    Baptist
  3. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,974
    Likes Received:
    1,666
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You are correct that Romans 9:13 is not specifically speaking of salvation.

    It is speaking of God’s sovereignty. As you move further into the chapter, however, Paul clearly transitions from a general discussion of God’s sovereignty to those God elects (further explaining Romans 8) to know the wonders of the glory of His mercy. That is speaking of salvation and God’s role in it.

    Paul clearly states God creates some for “honorable” use and some for “dishonorable” use. “Even us”, he says, referring to Christians.

    Another failed attempt to slay the doctrines of grace :)

    peace to you
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  4. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    19,543
    Likes Received:
    2,886
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Zactly
     
  5. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    19,543
    Likes Received:
    2,886
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The context is clearly, plainly, speaking of UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION.

    11 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, Ro 9
     
    #5 kyredneck, Mar 19, 2024
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2024
  6. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    10,994
    Likes Received:
    2,391
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I think Saved by Grace you need to change your avatar... You have no idea of the concept... Every translation I checked except two said Jacob have I loved Esau have I hated... I guess every translation is wrong except you?... Its God's love in question because if it wasn't for God's love, mercy and grace alone, you would be just like Esau... Brother Glen:)
     
  7. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    19,543
    Likes Received:
    2,886
    Faith:
    Baptist
    'Ranting anti-Cal' would suit @SavedByGrace perfectly. (...well, it would suit a handful of others on this board too...)
     
    #7 kyredneck, Mar 19, 2024
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2024
  8. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    19,543
    Likes Received:
    2,886
    Faith:
    Baptist
  9. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,149
    Likes Received:
    440
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It is you that has FAILED to refute what I have shown from the Bible, that God actually BLESSED Esau, and when it says that God HATED him, it does mean to LOVE LESS!
     
  10. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,149
    Likes Received:
    440
    Faith:
    Baptist
    How about TRYING to prove what I have said in the OP, to be wrong? I have shown from God's Word, that He BLESSED Esau, and PROTECTED his descendants, which He would NOT have done if He really HATED him!

    You guys simply cannot accept that your "system" is UNBIBLICAL in much of what it teaches, like the TULI in TULIP!
     
  11. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,149
    Likes Received:
    440
    Faith:
    Baptist
    On verse 39

    ALL the Jewish translations agree with what the KJV/NKJV, etc read BLESSINGS

    The Jewish Targums on this verse read

    Targum Onkelos, "And Izhak his father answered and said to him, Behold, thy habitation shall be of the best of the earth, and of the dew of heaven from above"

    Palestinian Targum, "And Izhak answered and said to Esau, Behold, among the good fruits of the earth shall be thy habitation, and with the dews of the heavens from above"

    "And his father Isaac answered and said to him, "Behold, your dwelling place shall be the fat places of the earth and of the dew of the heaven from above", https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8222/showrashi/true

    "And his father Isaac answered, saying to him, “See, your abode shall enjoy the fat of the earth And the dew of heaven above", Genesis 27:39

    "And Isaac his father answered and said unto him: Behold, of the fat places of the earth shall be thy dwelling, and of the dew of heaven from above", Genesis 27 / Hebrew - English Bible / Mechon-Mamre

    "And Isaac his father answered and said unto him: Behold, of the fat places of the earth shall be thy dwelling, and of the dew of heaven from above", Bereishit (Genesis): Chapter 27

    "And Isaac his father answered and said unto him: Behold, of the fat places of the earth shall be thy dwelling, and of the dew of heaven from above", Jewish Bible (JPS 1917) - Bereshit Chapter 27

    "Isaaq his father answered and said to him, “Behold, your dwelling shall be in the richness of the Earth and from dew of Heaven from above",The Peshitta Holy Bible Translated Translated by Glenn David Bauscher, Genesis 27:39 Parallel: And Isaac his father answered and said unto him, Behold, thy dwelling shall be the fatness of the earth, and of the dew of heaven from above;

    "And Isaac his father answered and said to him, Behold, your dwelling shall be in the fertile places of the earth, and the dew of heaven shall fall upon you from above", Holy Bible From The Ancient Eastern Texts: Aramaic Of The Peshitta by George M. Lamsa, Genesis 27:39 Parallel: And Isaac his father answered and said unto him, Behold, thy dwelling shall be the fatness of the earth, and of the dew of heaven from above;

    "And Isaac his father answered and said to him, Behold, thy dwelling shall be of the fatness of the earth, and of the dew of heaven from above", The Septuagint by Sir Lancelot Charles Lee Brenton, Genesis 27:39 Parallel: And Isaac his father answered and said unto him, Behold, thy dwelling shall be the fatness of the earth, and of the dew of heaven from above;
     
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,411
    Likes Received:
    3,556
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It is a very misused verse.

    The main issue, IMHO, is that context is ignored. The passage refers to God's action in his creating of a people (choosing Jacob....the "lesser son" by custom).

    We know that God blessed Easu, that God did not hate Easu in terms of emotion or even action in general.

    But in terms of creating His people for His purpose, God chose Jacob.


    We see this type of language in other passages stating that God did evil.

    You are absolutely correct that this is a much misused passage.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  13. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,974
    Likes Received:
    1,666
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You are correct. This verse is laying the foundation of God’s sovereignty in unconditionally electing specific people to salvation.

    peace to you
     
  14. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    16,018
    Likes Received:
    1,239
    Faith:
    Baptist
    But there is a condition. ". . . not of works, but of him that calleth; . . .
     
  15. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,149
    Likes Received:
    440
    Faith:
    Baptist
    total RUBBISH :eek:
     
  16. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,149
    Likes Received:
    440
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You are also WRONG!
     
  17. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    16,018
    Likes Received:
    1,239
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Wrong about what?
     
  18. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,149
    Likes Received:
    440
    Faith:
    Baptist
    your response to

    "You are correct. This verse is laying the foundation of God’s sovereignty in unconditionally electing specific people to salvation"

    which is UNBIBLICAL, HUMANISTIC NONSENSE!!!
     
  19. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,974
    Likes Received:
    1,666
    Faith:
    Baptist
    When I say “unconditionally” elect I’m referring the fact there are no conditions placed on the person by God by which God notices or approves or by which the person “earns” such attention and then salvation.

    Salvation is a work of God, start to finish, according to His sovereign mercy.

    peace to you
     
  20. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,974
    Likes Received:
    1,666
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Just because you say it doesn’t make it true.

    I have focused on scripture in context. You have focused on insults, which is always the response of those that cannot address scripture in context.

    peace to you
     
Loading...