eschatology continued 2

Of course you don't, and no preterist does. But at least you are honest about it. Jesus did not come in AD 70. No first, second, third or fourth century (and on and on) Christian ever claimed He did. The supposed 2nd coming of Christ in AD 70 was dreamed up in the feverish minds of full preterists many centuries later.

Therefore, full preterism is a huge error in the area of Christology, condemned in 2 John 9-11.

It isn't before the rapture, but is the Second Coming in Glory, which occurs after the tribulation. (See v. 29.) You never heard from me that 36-42 is the rapture.

 

Probably.

 

Yeah, that would be very dangerous.

 

Perhaps there is confusion with the events leading up to the second coming.

Christ, IMO, is not discounting a “rapture” as He is focused on the second coming and warning folks not to be deceived into believing stories of His return. The return will be around the world witnessed.

 

Whatever, there can be no prophetic significance in something that is a regular occurrence.

 

Sorry, damaging meteor strikes, as per the prophecies in Rev., are not regular occurrances, but very rare. You are more likely to be run over by a reindeer than be anywhere near a dangerous meteor strike.

 

Or you could say that the earlier reference could be in the future, and not included in the events that were fulfilled in that generation. The generation that He was addressing, the generation of the apostles. Just as valid.

Anyway when we meet the Lord in the air it will NOT be a secret coming it will be with a shout and a loud trumpet sound.

I don't believe there will be two comings, and I believe that is a false teaching.

 

I am a Reformed baptist, and a historical premil, so would agree with you on this part!

 

Me Too!... Brother Glen

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

Two thoughts, that you already are aware, but I respond for 5he more casual readers.

First, the question of the followers in Matthew was not a single one but three.
“...when will this happen,”
“and what will be the sign of your coming”
“and of the end of the age?”

More than one has neglected to keep the perspective of which question is being addressed in the answers given by Christ.
Along with this is that perspective of their own background. They were typical in looking for a political leader that was also the Spiritual leader. The immediacy of the events were top priority in their frame of reference.

Second, the Scriptures are very clear as to the events surrounding the second com8ng, just not the exact end other than the time of the Gentiles has been completed.

The rapture is hoped for, and as such may happen as some hope, or may not.

Often folks smush the events of the second comming as the dead rise then the living in one grand spectacle.

However, permit me to explore a bit different presentation.

Paul states, “14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.”

If He brings them with Him (for, are we not present with the
Lord, always, both now and in passing) then there must be a “gap” between “...and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air,...”.

When are the dead risen? When the flesh passes, for He brings those with Him as shown in Revelation.

Who is caught up and changed in the “twinkling of the eye?”

Those who have remained, the survivors, the ones who steadfastly held out in reliance of “the way.”

How long between the two? John sees folks asking the same question in Revelation 6.

Who are those that remain? Are they the tribulation believers who “endure to the end.”

Personal note:

Do I hope for a rapture? Certainly, I raise myself each morning in hope of such an escape.

Do I find evidence of a rapture in Scripture? Perhaps, however for the most part, is it the fleshly longing of hope in escaping what other believers have long endured for the faith?

This is certain, 1) the Lord is risen and coming again that all eyes will witness the event. 2) the Lord will establish that great millennial time just as promised in prophecy of the ancients and by the apostles.

 

Me too.

Thanks.
I say I was premil until recent years when the nonsense that pre tribbers post has led me to look again at the scriptures and not I don't see how the millennium can fit in, so I will now say, I am not sure.

 

Right now, probably the main points that keep me premil are that I see the first resurrection as when the second coming happens, when glorified, and not as born again, as A mils tend to do, and also feel that the Messianic Age as foretold by the prophets has never arrived here yet!

 

John 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Then there is this one among many!

Luke 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

And of course this one

John 1:40 One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother.

1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.

I understand it a little different than you do... Brother Glen

 

As the events prophesied in Revelation must shortly come to pass .... for the time is at hand, & are for the blessing of those who read, hear & keep what is written, the probability is that the prophecy concerns the AD 70 destruction, & the events prophesied occurred during the siege.

Stars/meteors & massive hail stones could refer to the projectiles & sling stones thrown by the Romans. Also a plague of hail, as against the Egyptians, falling on Egypt but not Goshen.

You've been discussing the 6th seal, & we need to bear in mind that Jesus has been opening the seals, as it were a video picture book, showing the days of vengeance prophesied by the Lord.

When we realise that the prophecy concerns the LAND (of Israel) rather than the whole earth (same word in Greek, understood by context) the scale of the judgments, deaths, etc, is local.

Ezekiel prophesied in 14:21-23

21 For thus says the Lord God: “How much more it shall be when I send My four severe judgments on Jerusalem—the sword and famine and wild beasts and pestilence—to cut off man and beast from it? 22 Yet behold, there shall be left in it a remnant who will be brought out ..... ​

which compares with Revelation 6:8

8 So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.​

The remnant who will be brought out would refer to the redeemed 144,000 firstfruits who were sealed before the angels released the four winds.

 

I will ignore the earlier part of your post as I have said repeatedly I am not a preterist and that preterism and futurism are both works of the Jesuits.

I didn't say I heard it from you, but I have heard it from other PTRs, on other boards.

I know the PTR teaching well as I was in the Brethren for years and was taught it there, after all, it is their teaching. My Dad was also in the Brethren but he left but I didn't know why, but my sister asked if I knew and I said I didn't. She said "Dad had a lot of questions about their view of prophecy, and gave the elders a list and asked for their comments. After about three months the handed the document back and said 'There will be no comment' so he left"
Later when I was still in the Brethren, my dad said "Beware of their teaching on the second coming because it is false." But I ignored him.

Eventually I got married. My wife was converted during a summer camp of the Girl Covenanters, when she was 14. She was from an atheistic left wing family.

We went to prophetic meetings in our area and in London. Eventually we attended one in our own church where the elder was speaking on one of the prophecies in Daniel. (I can't remember which one,) He said this was going to happen, then that would happen, etc,

Afterwards my wife said, "I was expecting all that to be written here, but it isn't" When I looked again at the scripture, I agreed that it wasn't. I then remembered my dads words, "Beware of their teaching on the second coming because it is false." I then started to read the prophecies more carefully, and found that he was correct.

I feel sorry for those who have been brainwashed into believing this novel system.

They say they believe that prophecy is literally to be understood, don't.

The nearest to true literalists that I have come across are the Sovereign Grace Advent Testimony. They say that prophecy does not have to be interpreted but just read as it is written. But they are not, as they believe that the 70 weeks are not a unit. They are reformed Baptist.

They follow the teachings of B W Newton and Tregelles, a Greek expert. They were both early Brethren who rejected the teachings of J N Darby.

 

Book of revelation describes world wide event, as it was not just local Middle east!
What would be the vast army from the east coming, or 1/4 of the world being killed off mean?
And when did Jesus return at that time?

 

Sorry Bro Ian but I disagree. The writing of the early Christians who gave the date were unanimous that it was in the reign of Domitian. That it would soon come to pass agrees with the Historical teaching, it began to come to pass immediately after it was written,

The book is addressed to Christians and Christian Churches, it concerns the Church and its history through the ages, not the Jews before AD 70 and not later. It regards the church.

Jesus said that the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat, and the Antichrist, the pope, sits in Christ's seat, as a false Christ. Antichrist cannot be Nero, or some anonymous actor in the Roman war, neither can be some future personality who rules the Jews. Christ is head of the Church, Antcihrist, the pope is head of the false church.

If that were not so, the Christians before 1800 believed a false gospel, and I don't think that is the case. The only people that gain from the preterist and futurist teachings are the RCC who began their resurgence from that time.

 

It would be an advantage to give scripture references for you claims

Blessings