Eternal Fire

Posted by Wopik:

I think the Biblical evidence is clear that it is not a death of consciousness that is meant by the 2nd death. The Biblical evidence is for conscious suffering -- "torment forever."

If anything, since physical death does not bring the end of consciousness, we should assume that the 2nd death does not do so either without copious Biblical evidence that it does, such evidence being startingly absent.

 

Wopik,

You are quoting OT figurative language. It is just that, poetic figurative language. You can't base doctrine on it. Period.

'Hell' is used for several different words in the bible. In the OT, it is used for Sheol and the grave. 'Hell" as we know it was not fully revealed in the oT.

In the NT, it is used for Gehenna, Hades, and others (I think you mentioned them earlier). All of these point to the same thing.

At death, an unbeliever is placed in 'hell'. Hell is not a permanent destination (Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.) Hell is a place of torment, of wailing and gnashing of teeth, of fire and pain. But it is only a 'holding area', if you will.

At the great white throne judgement, all of those who died unsaved, or were still unsaved when God caused the world to cease (Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.) will be raised to face their final judgement. Here they will be pronounced guilty and cast into the lake of fire.

I just don't get where they will be burnt up and that's it. Care to post the verses? As was said before, it sounds like Armstrong, SDA, and JW doctrine, not that you are. I would really like to try to understand the reasoning behind your beliefs.

If one is to burn up and that's it, why bother trusting Jesus? I mean, a quick flash of fire and no more? Heck, party on! Nothing to fear, nothing to worry about, right? Wrong.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

Isn't God the only One who is immortal?

1 Tim. 6:15-16 (ESV)
which he will display at the proper time—he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, [16] who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.

Man's soul has to be given immortality by God. I guess the question would be, in the traditional church understanding of Hell, does God give immortality to only the saved or to the unsaved as well. Or as the apostle Paul put it:

1 Cor. 15:53-57 (ESV)
For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. [54] When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

"Death is swallowed up in victory."
[55] "O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?"
[56] The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. [57] But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

So, do the unsaved mortals put on immortality, or only the saved; do the unsaved perishable bodies put on the imperishable, according to the traditional view?

 

You might be surprised how many people much this is being debated now among evangelicals. Here is a very informative article on the subject -

www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/012/1.30.html

 

Okay, I don't think the Psalms passage by itself can be used for annihilation due to 1)Scripture needs to be compared to scripture and because we have other scriptures teaching conscious suffering, we know this verse is not teaching the opposite; 2)a few verses down further (v. 22), it says the wicked will be "cut off." This does not mean annihilation. It is being cut off from God.

Becoming ashes (in Malachi) is another image -- this does not mean end of consciousness because of other verses that do not indicate end of consciousness, which have been copiously posted here. The image of destruction, death, and perishing all show the end of possible redemption and separation from God.

 

You are right, the "torment forever" is not an exact quote -- sorry. I was in a hurry and did not check. Here is what I was thinking of:

Here we have the beast and the false prophet being thrown in to the lake of fire where they will be "tormented day and night forever and ever." Then, in verse 15, it says:

So, if the beast and false prophet are in the lake of fire to be tormented forever, and unbelievers get thrown into the lake of fire, they will also be tormented forever.

Here is another "torment" and "forever" passage:

 

You are right, the "torment forever" is not an exact quote -- sorry. I was in a hurry and did not check. Here is what I was thinking of:

Here we have the beast and the false prophet being thrown in to the lake of fire where they will be "tormented day and night forever and ever." Then, in verse 15, it says:

So, if the beast and false prophet are in the lake of fire to be tormented forever, and unbelievers get thrown into the lake of fire, they will also be tormented forever.

Here is another "torment" and "forever" passage from Rev 14.10, 11:

 

the inclusion of the idea of "night and day" sets the premise that finite time will seem to last "forever and ever".

some opposing scriptures denying that (night and day) finite time will continue.

Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb [is] the light thereof.
Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.


meaning a transformation of finite time into a form of absolute time.
a transformation to a life from the physical realm to the spiritual realm in nature.

as well as the "forever and ever" comment. this is not pointing to eternal time, or absolute time.

but for(aion) and aion.
"for this age" and the next "age".

no reference here is towards eternities and eternities, but rather refering to "ages".

"ages" is what creation is based on, as satan is indeed a part of creation.

so that one could interpret the statement of Rev 20:10 as the devil will be tormented in mankinds finite timeline in this age and the next age.
where afterwards the day and night series is eventually concluded. and absolute time begins.

there is room for an enevitable conclusion and end of even this torment towards satan.

for aion and aion. (and then no day nor night)

 

Wopik, the point of my posting that passage was tho show that the unsaved would be put in the Lake of Fire where there is torment forever (which is the interpretation of "this age" and the next "age" - more on that later), so here it is again:

There is nothing to indicate that the unbelievers or the beast and false prophet are annihilated. The fire is always described as everlasting or unquenchable:

Suffering does not end:

Destruction is eternal -- that is, it is like being destroyed but it has no end -- like being in a fire but you never burn up or lose consciousness:

Humans were made for eternity. As Matthew Henry comments on 2 Thess 1: 8-9:

 

Wopik,

These verses speak of spiritually. When Adam was in the Eden of Garden. God told him, he can eat everything of the fruit trees, but can't eat tree- Tree of Life- knowledge and evil, IF eat it, will be surely die. When Adam ate it, was Adam died immediately? No. He was separate from God - spiritually death. Adam died 930 years later after he ate it.

These verse speak of any person who sinned, person have spiritually death - punishment.

By the way, you seems not believe the literal story of Luke chapter 16 tells us, the rich man opened his eye, and he screams suffering in the fire RIGHT AFTER his death? Rich man's soul is NOT DIE, Rich man's soul is still alive and even he still scream and tornmenting in the fire right now.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Wopik, this verse is talking about the resurrected body, not getting an immortal soul. The whole chapter is about the resurrection of the dead and this section is talking about the resurrection of the believers' bodies - they will have a resurrection body that will last forever.

Posted by Wopik

To quench means to extinguish, put out, or eliminate. Since it says that the fire will be unquenchable, that means that it will not be put out - no one gets burned up because the fire is eternal, and the fire will not die it (get quenched) because there is no end of fuel for it. Hence, unquenchable. Not able to be quenched.

 

Marcia-
1 Cor. 15: is talking about a spiritual awakening(resurrection).The resurrection of the spiritally dead man.