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eternal salvation

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Lawson-, Nov 21, 2004.

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  1. Lawson-

    Lawson- New Member

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    I am just looking for some help on arguing this point with members of the church of christ. The coc preaches that you can lose your salvation, also it teaches that you can not be saved without baptism. I am in the process of gathering passages to make my point. If anybody here could give me their suggestions that would help. I want to put together a good agrument before I get into this discussion with the coc member. Any body here who has delt with the coc will know why.

    Thanks Brad
     
    #1 Lawson-, Nov 21, 2004
  2. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Teh thief on the cross is a good argument to present them with.
     
    #2 gb93433, Nov 21, 2004
  3. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Lawson, there have been discussions here before on this with many resources given. If you can somehow look that up or ask a moderator to help you, you could get some info that way.

    Also, these links (the last 2 are in pdf format but are excellent and respond specifically to the COC):
    http://aomin.org/bapreg.html
    http://www.carm.org/questions/baptnec.htm
    http://www.letusreason.org/OCC13.htm
    http://www.letusreason.org/Doc1.htm
    http://www.cults.co.nz/pdfs/water_baptism.pdf
    http://www.cults.co.nz/pdfs/waterworks.pdf
     
    #3 Marcia, Nov 22, 2004
  4. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

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    Watch out. Some COC's can be EXTREMELY upset if you disagree with them. I had a roomate in college who was COC. The most miserable six months in the dorm.

    He would literally get violent and although I don't think he ever did it, but he kept talking like he wanted to beat someone up for disagreeing with him.

    They were taught to be arrogant and look down on Baptists, in particular.

    He would get mad and pout in the dorm room--wouldn't talk, just read his Bible, after an argument (and I do mean an argument, not a debate) that he couldn't convince he was the only truth.

    I thought he was an extremist, until I visited the "Bible Chair" (COC college organizations) and heard the same attitude towards those EVIL Baptists.

    This could be a local problem because a local COC preacher would write full page newspaper ads how they were the ONLY church of Christ and anybody not a MEMBER were going to hell.
     
    #4 Phillip, Nov 22, 2004
  5. Lawson-

    Lawson- New Member

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    The theif on the cross argument doesnt work because they say that was during the old law time, since Jesus had not died yet.
     
    #5 Lawson-, Nov 22, 2004
  6. graceb2u

    graceb2u New Member

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    I grew up in the Church of Christ. I was baptized in it. But when I started going to the baptist church I know attend my eyes were opened wide. I had so many misconceptions. I was told so many times growing up that I was going to hell for everything. I didn't even think of God as a loving God. When I was a teenager I began to question my faith. I knew I had committed many of the sins that they said I would go to hell for. But I stuck with it and God knew where my heart was. He never left me and now that I am in the Baptist Church I know this is where I was supposed to be all along.
     
    #6 graceb2u, Nov 22, 2004
  7. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    1 Cor. 1:17, "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void."

    One question I have asked them is about Jesus being baptized. Was he not saved so He needed to be baptized? It seems like I have never gotten much of a response from that.
     
    #7 gb93433, Nov 22, 2004
  8. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    According to Baptist history a number of the First Baptist Chruches later became a Church of Christ. So it was quite a battle at one time. They had quite a number of debates at that time over the issues.
     
    #8 gb93433, Nov 22, 2004
  9. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    There was a life-and-death struggle in some Baptist churhces and associations. Redstone Baptist Association split over the Restoration movement:

    "Therefore, unanimously Resolved, that for the satisfaction of all concerned, we now further state, that their exclusion was on account of being erroneous in doctrine, maintaining, namely, the essential derivation and inferiority of the true and proper Deity of Christ and the Spirit; that faith in Christ is only a belief of historical facts, recorded in the Scriptures, rejecting and deriding what is commonly called christian experience; that there is no operation of the Spirit on the hearts of men, since the days of pentecost, &c."


    — Records of the Redstone Baptist Association

    The Baptists and Restorationists were bound to be at loggerheads because both claimed to be the authentic New Testament church.

    The CoC has, traditionally, been much like the Primitive Baptists in worship style, though not in doctrine — no instrumental music (of course, some PB congregations and some CoCs no longer hold to that) and no salaried pastors, because Primitives are TULIP and the CoC is Arminian. CoC doctrine (there is no such thing, actually, because both the Disciples and the CoC eschew creeds and confessions) has always been weak on Christology, much as the early General Baptists were.

    When I was young, I knew of CoC that believed only CoC baptism was valid and that communion must be taken from a single coup.
     
    #9 rsr, Nov 22, 2004
  10. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

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    Good point gb. That would make a lot of sense why the focus on Baptists. Every CoC I have ever met really likes to argue. ....not discuss calmly, but cram their belief down your throat and call you names for not believing the truth.

    RSR, I thought all CoC believed that only their Baptism was good? The point being is that they are the ONLY Church of Christ and therefore if not a member and being Baptised by them, you go to hell.

    Another question I have always had for Coc: Is how can you be lost again and not require Baptism each time? If Baptism cleanses sin, as they believe; then wouldn't the sin you committed that puts you back into the lost state require another Baptism?
     
    #10 Phillip, Nov 22, 2004
  11. Lawson-

    Lawson- New Member

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    Thanks to everyone who responded
     
    #11 Lawson-, Nov 22, 2004
  12. untangled

    untangled Member

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    Baptism does not save anyone, however I believe that a Christian who strives to do the will of God will undergo baptism.
     
    #12 untangled, Nov 22, 2004
  13. Bro. James Reed

    Bro. James Reed New Member

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    It's the answer to a good conscience and a symbol of our love for Jesus Christ and his sacrifice. I just can't comprehend how someone who loves their Lord can hold out for years, or even never be baptized. Some say they don't feel worthy, but really, who is worthy? I'm glad I didn't wait til I felt worthy because I'm still not to that point. In fact, since being baptized, I feel less worthy of it today than I did when I submitted to it 13 years ago.
     
    #13 Bro. James Reed, Nov 22, 2004
  14. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Phillip said:

    "RSR, I thought all CoC believed that only their Baptism was good? The point being is that they are the ONLY Church of Christ and therefore if not a member and being Baptised by them, you go to hell."

    This is, in fact, common, but it is always dangerous to generalize about such a decentralized group. There is now a "Change Movement" active in the CoC that believes the that " ... among Churches of Christ, the restoration vision shriveled into a hard and legal shell, a parody of its former self" (Dr. Richard Hughes, Pepperdine University, in his book "Churches of Christ." Max Lucado's Oak Hills Church in San Antonio has explicity rejected baptismal regeneration, for example, and adopted instrumental music for evening services.

    Of course, it's also dropped "Church of Christ" from its name.
     
    #14 rsr, Nov 23, 2004
  15. prophecynut

    prophecynut New Member

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    [​IMG] Brad, I see you are from Iowa. I was born in Cedar Rapids and moved to California 10 years after I graduated from high school. Now there are too many people here and intend moving to Oregon.

    Seems no one has given you any passages supporting eternal salvation, which I consider to be the "P" or perseverance of the saints in Calvin's "TULIP."

    Maybe the following verses are what you're looking for:

    John 6:39-40; 10:28-30; 14:16

    Romans 8:29-30

    1 Cor. 1:8

    2 Cor. 1:21-22

    Phil 1:6

    Eph. 1:13-14

    Heb. 13:5
     
    #15 prophecynut, Nov 24, 2004
  16. Lawson-

    Lawson- New Member

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    Thanks, those will be perfect. I just moved to cedar rapids about 9 months ago.
     
    #16 Lawson-, Nov 24, 2004
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