1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Eternal Security : Once Saved Always Saved ?

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Brother_Joey_Gowdy, Jul 1, 2002.

  1. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    11,703
    Likes Received:
    1
    Oh Brian, don't worry about it. If I were recently divorced I would probably have tears in my eyes. As it is, I am incredibly happily married right now and I look back on my ex with feelings of compassion, buty also definitely a lack of understanding as to how any man can do that to his children (he never contacted them after the first six months). Me, yes. Do that to me. To the helpless kids? That will never make sense to me.

    But I do not mind talking about marriage at all. This one is wonderful!
     
  2. Ruht

    Ruht Guest

    The doctrine of the "free will" is based on legalism. It is the belief that man has the ability to choose to keep the written commandments of God, through his own willpower. However, such doctrine is not true, and is actually the exact opposite of what the Bible teaches.

    Paul, referring to himself of the time he was an unsaved Jew living under the law, reveals that such men do not have a "free" will:

    "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to WILL is present with me: but how to perform that which is good I FIND NOT" - Romans 7:18

    Some mistakenly think that Paul is referring to himself in his present, saved condition, in that passage of verses. But he is not. Paul is referring to himself to the time he was an unsaved Jew living under the law, and he begins the transition back to that time, beginning in verse 7 of that chapter, Romans 7:7, and continues referring to that time until the 25th verse of that chapter, the last verse.

    This passage has been mistaught by many, and misunderstood by many.

    And, when a person become saved, one still does not have a total "free will," but rather his/her will is now controlled by the Holy Spirit:

    "For it is God who worketh in you both to WILL and to DO of his good pleasure." - Philippians 2:13

    If the natural, sinful man had a total free will to choose to obey God's written commandments or not, then he would be neither good nor bad, but rather neutral. He would also not be in need of the new birth, as there would be no need of regeneration and the cleansing of his heart, and the empowerment to do righteousness by the birth of the Holy Spirit.

    Man has a limited free will. And at one time man had the total free will to choose not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good an evil, or to eat from the tree of life (salvation, eternal life). But after the fall of man, man no longer had the "free will" to choose the new salvation on his own strength, as the spirit of sin is stronger than the sinner's will; as revealed in Romans 7:14, as previously cited.

    This is why no man can come unto Christ unless the Father draw him. For man can now only accept salvation when the Holy Spirit temporarily binds the spirit of sin within the sinner, and frees him for the opportunity to call out to Christ for salvation. However, should the sinner refuse the call, then the Holy Spirit allows the sinner to go back into the bondage of the spirit of sin.

    All of the righteous deeds of the saved are not the result of the saved's "free will," but rather the result of the will and empowerment of the Holy Spirit within the hearts of the saved. The erroneous doctrine of the "free will" is the creation of the natural mind, not the revelations of the Holy Spirit.

    God bless.
     
  3. Graceforever

    Graceforever New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2001
    Messages:
    244
    Likes Received:
    0
    Amen brother….. We had no choice at all that we were born into sin, therefore we have no choice after that we are born of the spirit….. We cannot change what God has done…. The spirit will never leave us, if it could the Bible wouldn’t warn us to not grieve the Holy Spirit…. The spirit would just pack it’s bags and leave so that it wouldn’t be grieved…. Thank God that we are sealed with his Spirit until the day of redemption…..
     
  4. Graceforever

    Graceforever New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2001
    Messages:
    244
    Likes Received:
    0
    Excellent point Ruht, I used to be just as staunch in my opposition to eternal salvation, as Brian….. I was taught the freewill doctrine until I was a man… I argued, even persecuted (as Paul did) those that rested in the Grace of God…. Thank God for men like Adrian Rogers… Even though I was saved (although, still a child in spirit) my eyes still were blinded from the true Grace of God…. I started listening to Brother Rogers…. I knew in my spirit that he was telling me the truth… At the time I didn’t know he was preaching grace, because I didn’t fully understand it…. Finally, one day the scales fell from my eyes and it was like someone turned on a light… I wondered how that I could have diligently studied the word for so long and never truly understand what I studied…. The grace of God is truly a treasure that is hid in the field….. Just as you said, it was line upon line, here a little and there a little, that finally convinced me that I was on the wrong path.…..Tradition of men is one of God’s worse enemies and one of Satan’s biggest tools… Now I safely rest in God’s grace….. Brian, I sincerely hope that you come to this knowledge just as I did….
     
  5. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2002
    Messages:
    2,662
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hello!

    I am Independent Fundamental Baptist(IFB). I am a Bible believer. I agree 100% with all scriptures in the Bible.

    I am realize that the debate on the issue of salvation - security salvation, and OSAS in several discussion forums are on the rise become hotter than rapture timing or Eschatology right now than ever before.

    I do strongly believe in security salvation as IFB people do.

    I am aware that most Baptists are not thinking of being label themselve, "OSAS", but in fact, they do believe in onced saved, always saved. Because they believe it according to the Bible says so.

    I realize that I have see so many Christians have different views what the way as they interpreting the Bible differently.

    One person says, non-osas people believe in Jesus Christ, they are live godly , osas people believe in Jesus Christ, they are live godly. But, many non-osas people believe in Jesus Christ, but they do not live godly, osas people believe in Jesus Christ, but they do not live godly.

    I think either both of many non-osas and osas people might go to hell.

    Matthew 24:48-51 & Matthew 25:30 both bother me lot. I am concerning of IFB people claim, they are saved, but they not or never serve the Lord, will they go to hell?

    I notice most of IFB and SBC people avoid discuss on Matt 24:48-51 & Matt 25:30 too.

    Also, I notice most pretribbers are avoid dicuss on the issue- 'Will a Christian receives the mark of the Beast, go to lake of fire?'

    That bother me lot lately.

    I am not satisfy with my spiritual life. The one thing that fear me the mostly is, I will face judgmwnt seat of Christ. Yes, I will be trembling to face the Lord to judge my life and works.

    How can you explain on Matt 24:48-51 & Matt 25:30?

    I think it is serious matter. We need to clarify on security salvation and the judgment day.

    Because Matt 7:13-14 telling us, that MANY will go on wide road lead to destruction - hell, FEW will go on narrow road to heaven- few enter it.

    I am very concerning on IBC, SBC, and different organizations of Baptist. Most of them are OSAS. Even, most of them are pretribbers.

    Never know, many of us will be shock, to find out many of people that we know them, they will be find out that their name is not find written in the Book of Life, cast into lake of fire at the judgment day. Never know we might be shock that many of IFB will go to hell.

    That why I am very concerning on salvation right now. I am concerning on OSAS right now. We need to clarify on salvation, so, I want to see many people will not end up into shock by send them to lake of fire.

    Of course, many of us are continuing debate on the issue of salvation with many verses in the Bible.

    We need to understand more clear on salvation.

    I think many Baptists are already deceived. I am not kidding, I am serious.

    Please continue discuss on this topic. But, I do not want this topic lead us into division. Let's have good cooperative and love in discuss with respect each other in Christ.

    I read BrainT's posts in this topic. He made many good points. I am 100% agree with BrainT's points. I learned several verses that BrainT posted them. He's right on these verses.

    Have a nice day!

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  6. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2002
    Messages:
    2,662
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hello!

    I am Independent Fundamental Baptist(IFB). I am a Bible believer. I agree 100% with all scriptures in the Bible.

    I am realize that the debate on the issue of salvation - security salvation, and OSAS in several discussion forums are on the rise become hotter than rapture timing or Eschatology right now than ever before.

    I do strongly believe in security salvation as IFB people do.

    I am aware that most Baptists are not thinking of being label themselve, "OSAS", but in fact, they do believe in onced saved, always saved. Because they believe it according to the Bible says so.

    I realize that I have see so many Christians have different views what the way as they interpreting the Bible differently.

    One person says, non-osas people believe in Jesus Christ, they are live godly , osas people believe in Jesus Christ, they are live godly. But, many non-osas people believe in Jesus Christ, but they do not live godly, osas people believe in Jesus Christ, but they do not live godly.

    I think either both of many non-osas and osas people might go to hell.

    Matthew 24:48-51 & Matthew 25:30 both bother me lot. I am concerning of IFB people claim, they are saved, but they not or never serve the Lord, will they go to hell?

    I notice most of IFB and SBC people avoid discuss on Matt 24:48-51 & Matt 25:30 too.

    Also, I notice most pretribbers are avoid dicuss on the issue- 'Will a Christian receives the mark of the Beast, go to lake of fire?'

    That bother me lot lately.

    I am not satisfy with my spiritual life. The one thing that fear me the mostly is, I will face judgmwnt seat of Christ. Yes, I will be trembling to face the Lord to judge my life and works.

    How can you explain on Matt 24:48-51 & Matt 25:30?

    I think it is serious matter. We need to clarify on security salvation and the judgment day.

    Because Matt 7:13-14 telling us, that MANY will go on wide road lead to destruction - hell, FEW will go on narrow road to heaven- few enter it.

    I am very concerning on IBC, SBC, and different organizations of Baptist. Most of them are OSAS. Even, most of them are pretribbers.

    Never know, many of us will be shock, to find out many of people that we know them, they will be find out that their name is not find written in the Book of Life, cast into lake of fire at the judgment day. Never know we might be shock that many of IFB will go to hell.

    That why I am very concerning on salvation right now. I am concerning on OSAS right now. We need to clarify on salvation, so, I want to see many people will not end up into shock by send them to lake of fire.

    Of course, many of us are continuing debate on the issue of salvation with many verses in the Bible.

    We need to understand more clear on salvation.

    I think many Baptists are already deceived. I am not kidding, I am serious.

    Please continue discuss on this topic. But, I do not want this topic lead us into division. Let's have good cooperative and love in discuss with respect each other in Christ.

    I read BrainT's posts in this topic. He made many good points. I am 100% agree with BrainT's points. I learned several verses that BrainT posted them. He's right on these verses.

    Have a nice day!

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  7. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    25,778
    Likes Received:
    2,245
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Dear DP,

    In Matthew 13 Jesus tells us there will be tares among the wheat until the end. He also says to leave them alone...

    Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

    True, there are the under-shepherds to pastor the flock. But, unless there is a deadly heresy or an open and flagrant violation of Scripture, we must leave the judgment of the pretenders, hypocrites and the deceived to Him at the end of the age.
    We cannot see into the heart or know for sure the motive.

    Jeremiah 17
    9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
    10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

    HankD
     
  8. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    5,316
    Likes Received:
    0
    Deafposttrib says:
    We don't avoid it. The church will not be around for it. Believers during the tribulation will not receive it. And your friends that you say are saved will never go to hell (assuming they really are saved).
     
  9. jerryMschneider

    jerryMschneider New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2002
    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    0
    The question...OSAS. Jesus told us in John 14, that He would send us the Comforter or Helper to be with us FOREVER. This was not a conditional statement. And if words mean something then FOREVER is what it says...forever or ie eternal life.

    Paul wrote in Eph 1, that the mystery of Christ is revealed, that He lavished GRACE on us, giving us a predestined inheritance and having believed this we are SEALED in Him with the promised Holy Spirit, who is given as a pledge. The Apostle makes no conditional statement here. We as man may break promises or pledges but God does not.

    If GRACE means unmerited favor and we recieve the Holy Spirit as a pledge from God ie sealed, then there is nothing that can take Him out of us. At least I have never read in the NT where the Holy Spirit comes and goes out of a person. The Holy Spirit in us verifies our salvation and place with God in eternity.
     
  10. C.S. Murphy

    C.S. Murphy New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2002
    Messages:
    2,302
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think this nails it, I saw an earlier post that declared that we could jump from God's hand, I never believed that because to do so would mean I am more powerful than God . He gave us free will to chose but once chosen we are his, this post above reminds us that it is not as much about getting out of His hand as it is expelling teh Holy Spirit from inside our soul. I know we can greive Him but I see no scripture explaining how we cast him out. OSAS, believe it it's true.
    Murph
     
  11. BrianT

    BrianT New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2002
    Messages:
    3,516
    Likes Received:
    0
    That was my post. It does not mean you would be more powerful than God, for the sheep that goes astray is not more powerful than the shepherd.

    Scripture time and time again admonishes us to remain faithful, to abide, to not turn aside. To my thinking, such passages are empty and complete void of any purpose if being unfaithful or turning aside is impossible.
     
  12. C.S. Murphy

    C.S. Murphy New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2002
    Messages:
    2,302
    Likes Received:
    0
    Brian I am unfaithful and I often turn aside
    but my Saviour promises he will never leave me nor forsake me. If I can jump I would have to take the HS with me and He is not going into apostasy. God's words of admonishment are never empty we should learn to stay close to the Master, but didn't John say we have an advocate with the father. Trust in the Lord not in any deed you can do even if that deed is one of turning from sin.
    Murph
     
  13. BrianT

    BrianT New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2002
    Messages:
    3,516
    Likes Received:
    0
    If you cannot jump, there is no such thing as apostasy in the first place.
     
  14. hrhema

    hrhema New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2002
    Messages:
    715
    Likes Received:
    0
    To me Ruht sounds just like the Oneness Pentecostals. They say that God has blinded people not to see the truth that you must be filled with The Holy Ghost with evidence of speaking in tongues, you must be baptized in Jesus name and you must adhere to all the Holiness standards. The Mormons and the Jehovah Witnesses all believe also that God has blinded others not to see the truth as they see it.

    I rarely have heard people who don't believe in OSAS say that just one sin is going to send a believer to Hell. Nor two sins etc. What most believe is that a person can reject Christ sometimes in the future and never come back to him. We do not believe everyone that does this won't came back but we believe there will be those who have chosen this route who will be lost.

    I don't think there is one person on this board who has not sinned and does not sin occasionaly or even daily yet by some of the scriptures that have been quoted and the interpretation some have given this is an impossibility because you cannot sin with the Holy Spirit living inside. You better rethink your interpretation because something is sorely wrong with it.

    What bothers me is people equate works with sin.
    The people who believe works save them or is part of their salvation believe they are saved because they go to church. They teach a class or a Bible STudy or they give money etc. These people don't believe they are saved because they are trying to overcome sin. Look at the Roman Catholic Church. They believe all these good things they do which are works will get them into Heaven. It has nothing to do with overcoming sin or such. They believe they can confess to a man and have forgiveness of sin.

    THere has been scriptures in the Book of John where Jesus was praying to his Father about his apostles and people have taken this and made it a doctrine of salvation out of it. When Jesus said no man can remove them from his hand he was talking about his apostles for he went on to talk to God about Judas.

    God has promised us eternal life but God has not guaranteed us eternal life. There is a difference between a promise and a guarantee.

    In the Book of Revelation Jesus said that everyone who is victorious will eat of the tree of life, will not be hurt by the second death,
    will be clothed in white and he will never erase their names from the book of life.

    So what is this victorious that he is talking about? Also by what he said it tells us a person could have their name erased from the Book of Life.

    All through the New TEstament we are told there are commandments a Christian is supposed to follow and obey. So Ruht I guess these writers including Paul were legalists.
     
  15. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2002
    Messages:
    2,662
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hello!

    PreachtheWord,

    You said,

    'We don't avoid it. The Church will not be around it. Believers during the tribulation will not receive it."

    Notice, word, 'saints' simple mean Christians - 1 Cor. 14:33. We are saints - Rev. 13:7, & 10.

    Rev. 13:9 tells us, it is a very serious warning for everyone. God desrires that everyone hear warning, let them to listen the warning.

    Satan do not care people what kind of religion they are. Satan wants ALL people to be deceived many as he can.

    Satan will cause ALL religions have to worship him, and receive the mark of the beast.

    Even, include IFB, SBC, and all organizations of Baptists will be force to worship him, and receive the mark of the beast.

    Is it possible for a Christian to receive the mark of the Beast?

    Yes.

    Jesus warns in Matthew 24:24 - " IF it were POSSIBLE, they shall deceive the very elect."

    Not all Christians will be deceived. Unless, if any individual of Christians will make decision to accept or reject it.

    Yes, never know several of 'Christian' or any religion people will be deceived for receive the mark of the beast, go to lake of fire.

    Rev. 14:9-11 is very serious warning to us, if any person received the mark of the beast, go to lake of fire - everlasting punishment.

    Yes, in fact most pretribbers are avoid to discuss on this issue -'Will a Christian receive the mark of the beast'. They do not want to discuss it. I am aware of them.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  16. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2002
    Messages:
    2,662
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hello!

    PreachtheWord,

    You said,

    'We don't avoid it. The Church will not be around it. Believers during the tribulation will not receive it."

    Notice, word, 'saints' simple mean Christians - 1 Cor. 14:33. We are saints - Rev. 13:7, & 10.

    Rev. 13:9 tells us, it is a very serious warning for everyone. God desrires that everyone hear warning, let them to listen the warning.

    Satan do not care people what kind of religion they are. Satan wants ALL people to be deceived many as he can.

    Satan will cause ALL religions have to worship him, and receive the mark of the beast.

    Even, include IFB, SBC, and all organizations of Baptists will be force to worship him, and receive the mark of the beast.

    Is it possible for a Christian to receive the mark of the Beast?

    Yes.

    Jesus warns in Matthew 24:24 - " IF it were POSSIBLE, they shall deceive the very elect."

    Not all Christians will be deceived. Unless, if any individual of Christians will make decision to accept or reject it.

    Yes, never know several of 'Christian' or any religion people will be deceived for receive the mark of the beast, go to lake of fire.

    Rev. 14:9-11 is very serious warning to us, if any person received the mark of the beast, go to lake of fire - everlasting punishment.

    Yes, in fact most pretribbers are avoid to discuss on this issue -'Will a Christian receive the mark of the beast'. They do not want to discuss it. I am aware of them.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  17. hrhema

    hrhema New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2002
    Messages:
    715
    Likes Received:
    0
    The answer to the question is that the Book of Revelation says that power will be given to the Beast to war against the saints and OVERCOME THEM. So yes I believe that people who once were believers will recant and turn away from Christ and accept the mark of the Beast and according to the Bible they will be lost and cast into the Lake of Fire. They will do this out of their love for life instead of Christ. They will do this to escape martyrdom.
     
  18. hrhema

    hrhema New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2002
    Messages:
    715
    Likes Received:
    0
    I believe there will be those who will turn to Christ and start serving him after the rapture takes place. They will have a genuine salvation experience but when the pressure of martyrdom is there they will recant and turn away and deny Jesus and his blood and will trample on the blood and take the mark of the Beast and will be lost.
     
  19. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2002
    Messages:
    2,662
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hello!

    hrhema,

    2 Thess 2:1-3 tells us, that the gathering together will NOT come till we will see teo things - 'falling away' - apostasy, and we will face Antichrist to be revealed.

    Antichrist will persecute against Church before Lord comes.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  20. Scott_Bushey

    Scott_Bushey <img src=/scott.jpg>

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2001
    Messages:
    461
    Likes Received:
    0
    hrhema writes:
    I believe there will be those who will turn to Christ and start serving him after the rapture takes place.

    Scott asks:
    So, there will be a second chance?
     
Loading...