Featured Ex-Calvinism (Why I am no longer a Calvinist)

I actually argue that God had to punish the sins that God forgave to maintain the perfect character of God (Just and Holy and Loving).

I agree that our sins are forgiven by being “born from above” as a new creation, IN CHRIST, and with a new heart. God saves because God chooses to make ALIVE, people that were DEAD in their sins (like in Eph 2:1-10).

 

George Antonios,

The elect were always viewed as being in Christ, in saving union with their mediator and surety.

 

Sadly, men do not completely “die to sin” until we breathe our last ... already and not yet.

 

This is correct. Believers are called by the Father, through the Spirit, and given to the Son. This has always been the sovereign decree of God. Our Particular Baptist forefathers understood this:

1.5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )

All believers are predestined in Christ before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:3-4). That is what the text says. It is unambiguous and clear as a bell. Believers throughout out all of human history, have been chosen from the beginning (from eternity) for salvation in Jesus Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14). To suggest that Calvinists believe otherwise is not a simple misunderstanding of Calvinism, it is a blatant falsehood. That is why certain individuals will not receive a direct response from me.

 

Salvation: past, present and future.

• We were saved.
• We are saved.
• We shall be saved.

 

Reformed,
I believe the reason many struggle to welcome these very truths and fine verses you have offered is a major failure to consider the work of all three persons of the Trinity in all these phases of redemption.
sometimes to better understand redemption, each individual frame,
[like the old 8 mm movies] is slowed down and scrutinized, but Gods work is fluid in real-time.
God does instantly what it takes us years to fully grasp.

 

A good Southern Baptist Pastor spent almost a year teaching through the Southern Baptist Faith and Message and the themes of “past-present-future” promises and “already and not yet” came up a lot.

For example, the Bread:

• Christ’s body on the cross (past),
• one body of Christ assembled (present),
• the perfected ‘Body of Christ’ as all of the Saints forever in heaven (future)

... all three symbolized at the same time in the bread held in your hand and uniting each of us to the past, present and future realities through “in Christ”.

 

This is a good observation. When we speak of God doing something it must not be lost on us that all three members of the Godhead are in unity. Each person in the Godhead has a unique role but they work in unison. When the Son of God died on the Cross the Father and the Holy Spirit were not sitting on the sidelines. The Son was active in creation (Hebrews 1:2) even though He is not mentioned directly. Predestination and Election are not different.

 

First, you have not presented a biblical argument for any of this. You are doing exactly what @rsr accused you of. You have brought a knife to a gunfight; philosophy instead of a biblical case.

Foreknowledge means to know beforehand. I have no idea what "God having a type of relationship via Christ" is supposed to mean because such language is foreign to scripture. An individual is either in Christ or he is not in Christ. God's foreknowledge in this regard is simply "a dimension of God's omniscience. God eternally knows all things that to humans appear to be "in the future."* God elected individuals after the counsel of His own will (Ephesians 1:11). Each and every person God predestined** He predestined as being in Christ.

You mention that it is problematic because it places God outside of time. That is not so. God created time. He operates in and out of linear time as we know it. The law of physics and all of the physical dimension were created by God. Mankind was created to operate within God's physical creation and to be governed by its laws. However, God is not limited by the laws He created. Those whom God elected were seen by God as already in Christ. They were not elected because of their status in Christ (as you stated) but because God, through election, placed them in that status. There was no soteriological cart before the horse.

*McKim
**Election and predestination are interchangeable terms.

 

This seems to sidestep the question, as it does not specifically address what the punishment is. It is unclear whether you are denying punishment altogether, or have an idea of how the punishment rendered at the judgment will lead to rehabilitation, or what. Again, this may need a separate thread.

 

A biblical case has been made in this thread for some of those presuppositions and you either failed to see them or you reject them. Either is fine but they have been made. That is far from smoke. That is fire.

 

OK, good people. It is bedtime. See you tomorrow. Same bat time; same bat channel.