Excited

Michelle, look at the passage carefully.
The context is Jesus speaking to His Apostles about guiding them into ALL truth as they write down the inspired words of God, when that time would come.
There may be some application of those verses to us today, but that is not the primary meaning.

#1. No one today is guided into ALL truth. No one here has a perfect truth. Especially you, may I add. You have made some outlandish claims which cannot be supported by Scripture or any other sources. The Holy Spirt does not lead into error. Neither does he lead today anyone into ALL truth. We are not perfect. We do not know ALL the truth.

#2. He does not speak of Himself, but He speaks of Christ.

#3. "Whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak, and he shall show you things to come."
--Think of it Michelle. He showed John things to come in the Book of Revelation, things that would "shortly come to pass." What future events has the Holy Spirit given to you that you may prophesy to us? Have you the Spirit of prophecy? Can you predict the future. The Holy Spirit showed the Apostles things to come; what has he showed you--that will come to pass?

Does this passage really apply to you? I think not.
DHK

 

Good. Then you owe me an apology for referring to the TR in reference to the day star/lucifer issue (the TR reads day star).

BTW, if I read scripture in the KJV source texts, and find that it differs from the KJV, which is authoritative?

If it is unnecessary, then why have you done it with non-KJV translations? If it is unnecessary, then all you have to do is read the translation itself, without comparing it to aything else.

 

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Michelle, look at the passage carefully.
The context is Jesus speaking to His Apostles about guiding them into ALL truth as they write down the inspired words of God, when that time would come.
There may be some application of those verses to us today, but that is not the primary meaning.
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I never said I know all truth. What I said is what the scriptures say, that the Holy Spirit will lead us to all truth. This applies to everyone who has the Holy Spirit. Here are some more scriptures for ya:


Psalm 51, Luke 11:13, Ephesians 1:13-23, 4,
1 Thess. 4:1-8, John 3, 1 Peter 1:23.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

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#2. He does not speak of Himself, but He speaks of Christ.
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This is very true. He most certainly glorifies our Lord Jesus Christ. The most precious and best friend anyone could, or will ever have.


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#3. "Whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak, and he shall show you things to come."
--Think of it Michelle. He showed John things to come in the Book of Revelation, things that would "shortly come to pass." What future events has the Holy Spirit given to you that you may prophesy to us? Have you the Spirit of prophecy? Can you predict the future. The Holy Spirit showed the Apostles things to come; what has he showed you--that will come to pass?
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I never said I would prophecy, nor could prophecy. What the scriptures say is that he shall show us things to come. Have you ever read the book of Revelation? I have, and He has shown me what is to come. He has given me understanding of what is to come (albeit, not all, as I am still learning). He has also given me not only understanding, but assurance that I am saved and will one day be resurrected when He calls me up unto Himself. He has most assuredly given me understanding of what is to come.


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Does this passage really apply to you? I think not.
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As I explained above I not only "think" it applies to me, I KNOW WITH ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY it does.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

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The KJV is not scripture. It is a translation of scripture. It is not authoritative in any way over its source texts. You adhere to false and heretical doctrine when you think it does.
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Where is your scriptural support/authority to make this claim about the scriptures themselves, and accusation toward me (as well as many others and throughout history)?


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

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Good. Then you owe me an apology for referring to the TR in reference to the day star/lucifer issue (the TR reads day star).
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I owe you no apology. My final authority says it is Lucifer. Lucifer is Satan. The scriptures themselves have declared this, if one rightly divides the word of truth. Webster's dictionary also defines Lucifer as Satan. Ask any common person who Lucifer is and they will tell you Satan. You are in the wrong because of your own interpretation. Your interpretation is wrong because it is not supported scripturally, historically, or presently.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

michelle said "My final authority says it is Lucifer."

Yes, we know.

michelle said "Lucifer is Satan. The scriptures themselves have declared this,"

No, "Lucifer is Satan" is your interpretation. The scriptures themselves have not declared this - rather, your interpretation has declared this.

michelle said "Webster's dictionary also defines Lucifer as Satan."

It defines it as "morning star" first. It only includes "Satan" as a definition because of the way the English language evolved due to an interpretation of this passage, started by Jerome who produced the Latin Vulgate.

michelle said "Ask any common person who Lucifer is and they will tell you Satan."

Ask any common person if KJVO is reasonable and they will laugh at you.

michelle said "Your interpretation is wrong because it is not supported scripturally, historically, or presently."

Do you really want to go through that again? The interpretation that this is referring to a king of Babylon, comparing him to the "morning star" is supported scripturally, historically, and presently.

 

Sorry for stealing your thread.
But nearly every thread is stolen here for
the KJVO-yea/nay fuss.

I pray that God will bless your study of the
Greek Brother NateT. Further I ask that
God will bless your family and your ministry
even this very week-end. Amen.

Praise Jesus!

 

My Final Authority, the Real King James
Version of 1611 says it is "day starre".
This is stated in the dervied inspiration
sidenotes. Anyway, if one rightly divides
the word of truth, one finds that in
Ifaiah 12 that this type of Satan compares
by a metaphor the Lead Devil to the
day starre (AKA: bright and morning star,
Venus, evening star, etc.) Other scriptures
compare Jesus, our Blessed Lord and Savior,
Messiah and King, to the bright and morning star
(AKA: day star, Venus, evening star, etc.)
in either similie or metaphor.

Praise Iesus, as the Day Starre!

 

Amen, Brother Natters -- Preach it!

That makes her real "Final Authority" to be
her own opinion. But if you study the history
of the Baptist movement, you find a
strand of the Protestant movement that
believes in the Priesthood of the Believer,
believes in Soul Copentcy. We are each
responsible before God for reaching our own
relationship with God. This includes forming
our own opinions about the Role in our lives
of Satan (AKA: Lead Devil, The Devil, Chief
of the Devils, Accuser, etc.)

Praise Iesus, the Day Starre!

 

jgodc:Good luck Nate, after you spend a few years studying greek you will realize that the translating committee for the KJB have already done the work for you.

As have also the translators of the Geneva Bible, NASB, NIV, and NKJV.

Apparently they made a few booboos.

If one acquires the ability to read the Scriptures in a language closer to the original, what's wrong with that?

GO, NATE!


Why study the Greek when the Bible has been preserved in English (Ps 12:6-7)

Because he will avoid mistakes such as the one above YOU'VE made. If you study the marginal note made by the translators in the AV 1611, you'll see Ps.12:7 is about PEOPLE.(Yeah, I know the OT is in Hebrew, but a mistake is a mistake.)

 

KJVBT:Im not sure what the problem is, verse 6 says "the words of the Lord are pure words:as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times." verse 7 says "Thou shalt keep them,O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation forever."
Seems clear enough to me, 'course im just an "uneducated KJVO".

Then educate yourself by reading the AV 1611, and the translators' marginal note for Ps.12:7, to-wit:

"Heb. him, I. euery one of them"

Why is it that many of today's KJVOs act as if they know more about the KJV than its very translators did, especially when they're using later editions?

 

There are excellent reasons to study Greek. First of all, because the original language source text is the "final authority" by which *all* English translations must be measured. Secondly, because the KJV translators didn't always give us the best English rendering ("opening" vs. "torn open" in Mk. 1:10 springs to mind). Finally, because there are some things in the original language text that can't be translated into English (acrostics or puns and wordplay, for instance).

 

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michelle said "Lucifer is Satan. The scriptures themselves have declared this,"

No, "Lucifer is Satan" is your interpretation. The scriptures themselves have not declared this - rather, your interpretation has declared this.
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The scriptures, when rightly divided declare this to be none other than Satan himself as has been shown to you all. Like I said, the scriptures say this, History says this, and present day says this. Just because many today say it is not, without any support scripturally, historically, or presently is moot and shows forth itself as one's own interpretations and opinion.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

michelle said "The scriptures, when rightly divided"

Yes, yes. Everyone thinks that they themselves are the ones "rightly dividing". Even Mormons. Saying you are rightly dividing does not make it so.

michelle said "Just because many today say it is not, without any support scripturally, historically, or presently is moot and shows forth itself as one's own interpretations and opinion."

First, "morning star" has scriptural, historical, and present support - oodles of it, mountains of it. Second, "Lucifer" and "morning star" are translation. Who the term is referring to is interpretation. One can accept "morning star" as an accurate translation and also believe the passage is about Satan. One can accept "Lucifer" as an accurate translation and also believe the passage is not about Satan.

 

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michelle said "Webster's dictionary also defines Lucifer as Satan."

It defines it as "morning star" first. It only includes "Satan" as a definition because of the way the English language evolved due to an interpretation of this passage, started by Jerome who produced the Latin Vulgate
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Websters New World dictionary

Lucifer: Satan


Webster's New World Dictionarey, Pocket Books Paperback Edition

Copyright 1990, 1995 by Simon & Schuster Inc.

This dictionary is based on and includes material from Webster's New World Dictionary, Third College Edition, copyright 1998, 1991, 1994


First Pocket Books paperback printing August 1995

Foreword

This Pocket Books paperback edition of Webster's New World Dictionary represents a major updating of its predecessor, which was last revised in 1990. It has been compiled from the outset to serve readers who want reliable, up-to-date, portable dictionary for use in home, at school or in the office. It derives its authority and content from the acclaimed Webster's New World Dictionary, Third College Edition, as updated in 1994. The paperback dictionary offers broad coverage of idiomatic expressions, many illustrative phrases, and brief but helpful usage labels and etymologies, all designed to enhance the reader's understanding of current meanings and connotations. Every entry demonstrates the expertise of Webster's New World staff lexicographers, with their combinded 150 years of experience in editing dictionaries.
.....

So as of, and prior to 1994, the definition of Lucifer is Satan. Ask also, many people today, who Lucifer is, and they will tell you.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Yes, Michelle, I know. We've been over it. I've already responded to that. Repeatedly.

"Ask also, many people today, who Lucifer is, and they will tell you."

Public opinion is not my measuring stick, nor should it be.

 

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michelle said "The scriptures, when rightly divided"

Yes, yes. Everyone thinks that they themselves are the ones "rightly dividing". Even Mormons. Saying you are rightly dividing does not make it so.

michelle said "Just because many today say it is not, without any support scripturally, historically, or presently is moot and shows forth itself as one's own interpretations and opinion."
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I am not just claiming it, I showed it to you all with the scriptures. Go look, it is on another thread.

Where has ANYONE shown otherwise with the scriptures?

No one has, nor can you, because what one says is not Satan, scripture shows it is. And when one shows morning star in this passage, is not morning star, even when you rightly divide the word of truth one can see clearly this is true. Until one proves one's claims with the scripture, one is NOT RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH and coming up with one's own interpretation, and even to the opposite of what scripture, history and the present know and say about this. Then claiming falsely that I and many others are, when the proof has been given on this side, and NONE on those who claim it is not true have.

One's opinion of this means nothing, unless one can support it with scripture. It hasn't been done on the side that claim Lucifer is not referring to Satan. PROVE IT BY RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

michelle said "I showed it to you all with the scriptures"

No, you showed us with your interpretation of scriptures.

michelle said "One's opinion of this means nothing, unless one can support it with scripture. It hasn't been done on the side that claim Lucifer is not referring to Satan."

Context. The passage starts out at verse 4 with "That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon..." Is that not scripture?

I suggest you create a new thread if you AGAIN want to discuss Isa 14:12. I will not discuss it further in this thread, but only in a thread where it is the main topic.

 

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My Final Authority, the Real King James
Version of 1611 says it is "day starre".
This is stated in the dervied inspiration
sidenotes. Anyway, if one rightly divides
the word of truth, one finds that in
Ifaiah 12 that this type of Satan compares
by a metaphor the Lead Devil to the
day starre (AKA: bright and morning star,
Venus, evening star, etc.) Other scriptures
compare Jesus, our Blessed Lord and Savior,
Messiah and King, to the bright and morning star
(AKA: day star, Venus, evening star, etc.)
in either similie or metaphor.
--------------------------------------------------


So Ed, you are telling me, that you have put the opinions of the KJB translators, above the authority of God's preserved word in our language, and at the contradiction of what the scriptures say when rightly dividing the word of truth? So, the KJB translators opinions are God's word of truth now even at the contradiction it proves when one rightly divides the word of truth? With not only Lucifer in this passage, but the morning star as well.


Amazing.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle