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Featured Explain about atheists to me

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by church mouse guy, Jan 11, 2018.

  1. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    Ken Ham, President, CEO, and Founder of Answers in Genesis tweeted this morning an older article about why do atheists care? Now that has always puzzled me, and I am not sure about the answer. Ken Ham notes that atheists opposed him every step of the way on both the Creation Museum and the replica of Noah's Ark-- both in Kentucky, as you know. Why do they care? Explain it to me, please.

    He concludes, "So why do these who so aggressively oppose Christianity care? They care because they are desperately trying to justify their rebellion against the truth. They don’t want to admit that they are sinners in need of salvation and thus need to submit to the God who created them and owns them."

    Why Do Atheists Care?
     
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Well if the Atheist world view is correct - then by getting all Christians to join in their ultimate goal of a " glorious hole in the ground" - they merely get people to be "better informed" before they enter that much-anticipated "hole in the ground". And since "the dust" will be no wiser when it gets there - it is all for nothing
     
  3. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    I, personally, do not believe there is such a thing as an genuine "atheist." My opinion is that the term "atheist" is simply a label that some would attach to themselves because they refuse to acknowledge God.

    I believe the Bible is clear that every man is born with an inherent knowledge of God (John 1:9); they simply refuse to acknowledge Him as such.
    Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

    The reason why the "atheist" would oppose the things mentioned in the OP is because of their father, the devil (John 8:44). He and his offspring are anti-God, anti-Christ, anti-Bible, anti-Christian, anti-Church, and anything else that could bring honor and glory to God, or that could give others a greater understanding of God and His Word.

    The "atheist" knows that there is a God; he simply hates Him, as does his father.
     
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  4. JohnDeereFan

    JohnDeereFan Well-Known Member
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    I try really hard to differentiate between those who are merely blinded and captives to the god of this world, and those who know the truth, but choose to make themselves enemies of God. While it's true that all the unregenerate are enemies of God, just as we have practical and formal heretics in theology, so you can have someone who is a captive and someone who has joined his captor in the world.

    If it's the former, then I try to be patient with them. If they're the latter, then I just don't engage.
     
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  5. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    I was Atheist back when it wasn't hip.

    Your not allowed to question the matterfactly say so of peer pressure monster God.

    It is merciless to question because the conclusions forced on you are TERRORIST in nature.

    OH...you don't believe in Jesus.....you can burn in hell. You tell any kid that what choice does he have?
    Oh... you don't believe Mo hamud the prophet? .......You can burn in hell.

    Religious TERRORISM, the boogeyman that keeps everyone in check. Worst then any chain letter.

    The bullies and sadist have no problem using God for their own ends, Certain folks take a great joy even glee of damning others to hopelessness. Some require a licence to sin a charade to justify their sin.

    God can read your mind right now, knows what you feel right now, but no your better at hiding how you honestly think, the terror is a having a God who is without mercy or reason, There is something humiliating there you can't even forgive yourself for.


    There is a kind of person who tells people what they want to hear, only wants the positive, and will LIE to themselves to achieve a pat on the back. They will conform to anything. There is a comfort in being appreciated,
    A Crowd Pleaser who would kick their own friend on the ground if everyone else did it.

    There is also a wrong kind of atheist, ANTI-theist. Who basicly a religion on themselves, will vilify every religion, alot of these monsters are our own creation. Atheist cause they are angry at God. Damaged Goods.

    Folks who insist there is not a GOD still run on "FAITH" because they believe the spectacular idea that absolutely NOTHING got up one morning and decided to fix coffee and then create everything else.


    The agnostic who doesn't insist absolutes. A good scientist. Wants some proof, evidence. I think quantum mechanics is starting to open that door. Introvert meditation, contemplative prayer, self-disciplines based on listening to God.


    What your idea of God and what folks think your idea of God is can be 2 different things.


    I never dismiss a person for not believing in God as, well they are just evil and I am not.

    Its a very hard practice, but one should not fault-find and if they do they better start with themself.

    Cause I know if I could set a better example there would be no question about God. Someone who has a sincere trust of God, A person who fully trusts Jesus Christ, that is a rare sight to behold, Always calm, always relaxed, absolutely fearless, nothing combative.
     
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    So then you too would flat out condemn the command to "exterminate heretics and Jews" of LATERAN IV - infallible ecumenical council ... like the rest of us??
     
  7. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member

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    I don't believe in atheists: Romans 1.
     
  8. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Laughable.

    SOURCE or it never happened.

    Fourth Council of the Lateran - Wikipedia


    I can give sources. ^ Click that link above you get the whole list.

    No where does it give the command to kill anyone.


    I don't think you are familiar with the time or period. If Catholics were commanded to exterminate All Jews and Heretics there would have been a murderous rampage that would make the holocaust look like Disneyland.

    This is before any protestants are around, everyone is Catholic. The 5th Crusade begins.

    Spain/France have problems with Muslim/Cathars

    The middle east the Muslims are controlling the holy land

    In the far east Genghis Khan started growing the largest Empire the world has ever seen to date.
     
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Would have been -- had they not done sooooo much "exterminating" in the dark ages of the RCC's reign of terror in Europe.

    Indeed we call it the "dark ages" when even your own pope benedict admits to over 25 million Christians slaughtered by the RCC.
     
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  10. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    What Christians Bob? can you name one?

    We call it dark ages because historical/educational data were all contained in monasteries, there were no schools or universities and libraries. The number of historic writers plummeted.

    Catholics are the only Christians around! Name anything. Gee i suppose catholics killed catholics since only catholics are around to kill.


    England alone only had a population of 1.5 million, Italy 7 million. and you want to tell me Catholics killed 25 million a non existent number even for a whole populations! HAHAHA!

    [​IMG]




    How about putting up sources instead of LIES. Anyone can easily google and wiki:

    Dark Ages (historiography) - Wikipedia

    Medieval demography - Wikipedia



    Previous post I put up sources, and you came back with nothing but spouting Fanatical Accusations.

    Where is the BEEF brother? Lets see some sources, you dont even give fake mom and pop website sources, you gave zero.
     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    all this "laughter" from Catholics on the subject of the dark ages and killing millions of the saints?? really??

    The RCC had about 1260 years to implement its "extermination of heretics" infallible commands -- that are still in Canon Law decrees of ecumenical councils.
     
  12. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I can. Why don't you google up William Sawtrey, John Badby or John Claydon?

    And the Inquisition ran from 1203 until the early 19th Century.
     
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    True about the inquisition - but killing Christians was wayyy before that -

    Interesting how the "Christians that Catholics killed" topic comes up on this about-atheism thread... and I think it is Utiliyan that brought up the harsh cruel measures of the Catholic church.
     
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Latin origin for Exterminate:

    Originally, to exterminate something was to banish it or drive it away. And it is this meaning that can be found in the Latin origin of "exterminate." "Exterminate" comes from "exterminatus," the past participle of "exterminare," meaning "to drive beyond the boundaries." The Latin word "exterminare" was formed from the prefix "ex-" ("out of" or "outside") and "terminus" ("boundary"). Not much more than a century after its introduction to English, "exterminate" came to denote destroying or utterly putting an end to something. And that's the use with which the word is usually employed today.


    Word of the Day: Exterminate


    Origin

    late Middle English (in the sense 'drive out'): from Latin exterminat- 'driven out', from the verb exterminare, from ex- 'out' + terminus 'boundary'. The sense 'destroy' (mid 16th century) comes from the Latin of the Vulgate.

    exterminate | Definition of exterminate in English by Oxford Dictionaries



    verb (used with object), exterminated, exterminating.

    1. to get rid of by destroying; destroy totally; extirpate:

    to exterminate an enemy; to exterminate insects.


    Origin of exterminate


    1535-45; < Latin exterminātus, past participle of extermināre to extermine; see -ate1




    FORDHAM – (Jesuit)


    The Fourth Lateran Council, the council that dogmatized transubstantiation, offered indulgences to those who would "exterminate heretics" and participate in a Crusade. Since this council refers to the RCC's influence over the state (John 19:11), it points to the fact that the state was acting at the command of the RCC. The council declared (Internet History Sourcebooks Project


    CANON 3
    “Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be admonished and induced and if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure, that as they wish to be esteemed and numbered among the faithful, so for the defense of the faith they ought publicly to take an oath that they will strive in good faith and to the best of their ability to exterminate in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church; so that whenever anyone shall have assumed authority, whether spiritual or temporal, let him be bound to confirm this decree by oath. But if a temporal ruler, after having been requested and admonished by the Church, should neglect to cleanse his territory of this heretical foulness, let him be excommunicated by the metropolitan and the other bishops of the province. If he refuses to make satisfaction within a year, let the matter be made known to the supreme pontiff [the Pope], that he may declare the ruler's vassals absolved from their allegiance and may offer the territory to be ruled lay Catholics, who on the extermination of the heretics may possess it without hindrance and preserve it in the purity of faith; the right, however, of the chief ruler is to be respected as long as he offers no obstacle in this matter and permits freedom of action. The same law is to be observed in regard to those
    who have no chief rulers (that is, are independent). Catholics who have girded themselves with the cross for the extermination of the heretics, shall enjoy the indulgences and privileges granted to those who go in defense of the Holy Land.”











    ================================================


    Which church is the best?

    Posted: August 9, 2005
    1:00 a.m. Eastern

    © 2005 WorldNetDaily.com

    I'm also encouraged by Benedict XVI, who seems to have inherited John Paul II's humility as well as his loyalty to foundational doctrines.

    On Jan. 22, 1998, when he was still a cardinal and the grand Inquisitor (yes!) of the Roman Catholic Church, he declared that their archives (4,500 large volumes) indicate a death toll of 25 million killed by the Catholic Church for being "heretics." And likely two-thirds of the original volumes are lost.

    That kind of honesty will help relations (though there is no basis for uniting the RCC with Bible-believing Protestant churches).

    ==============================================================================

    Catholic Digest 11/1997 pg 100



    The answer from Fr. Ken Ryan:

    ==============================================


    In the article above – Fr. Ken Ryan makes the meaning of “extermination” of that group and “many other groups” clear for modern readers.

    Catholic apologists like Catholic Digest’s Fr. Ken Ryan quoted above often argue that the RCC isn't accountable for the Inquisition, since the state carried out the torturing and the executions. It was the RCC who defined these people as "heretics", however, and the RCC handed them over to the state (John 19:11).
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The Fourth Lateran Council, the council that dogmatized transubstantiation, offered indulgences to those who would "exterminate heretics" and participate in a Crusade. Since this council refers to the RCC's influence over the state (John 19:11), it points to the fact that the state was acting at the command of the RCC. The council declared (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/lat4-c3.html):

    Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be admonished and induced and if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure, that as they wish to be esteemed and numbered among the faithful, so for the defense of the faith they ought publicly to take an oath that they will strive in good faith and to the best of their ability to exterminate in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church; so that whenever anyone shall have assumed authority, whether spiritual or temporal, let him be bound to confirm this decree by oath. But if a temporal ruler, after having been requested and admonished by the Church, should neglect to cleanse his territory of this heretical foulness, let him be excommunicated by the metropolitan and the other bishops of the province. If he refuses to make satisfaction within a year, let the matter be made known to the supreme pontiff [the Pope], that he may declare the ruler's vassals absolved from their allegiance and may offer the territory to be ruled lay Catholics, who on the extermination of the heretics may possess it without hindrance and preserve it in the purity of faith; the right, however, of the chief ruler is to be respected as long as he offers no obstacle in this matter and permits freedom of action. The same law is to be observed in regard to those
    who have no chief rulers (that is, are independent). Catholics who have girded themselves with the cross for the extermination of the heretics, shall enjoy the indulgences and privileges granted to those who go in defense of the Holy Land

    This then is the "infallible" position of the RCC not only demanding the extermination of dissenters but also describing the methods to force the civil authorities to comply with the RCC command.


    Pretty hard to miss that point. Makes it very difficult to pin this on the civil authorities that are themselves being threatened by this decree if they fail to comply with it.

    AS for the word “exterminate” –

    The etymological origins of the word exterminate are found in the Latin word "exterminare,"

    Moneantur autem et inducantur et si necesse fuerit per censuram ecclesiasticam compellantur saeculares potestates, quibuscumque fungantur officiis, ut sicut reputari cupiunt et haberi fideles, it a pro defensione fidei praestent publice iuramentum, quod de terris suae iurisdictioni subiectis universos haereticos ab ecclesia denotatos bona fide pro viribus exterminare studebunt, ita quod amodo quandocumque quis fuerit in potestatem sive spiritualem sive temporalem assumptus, hoc teneatur capitulum iuramento firmare.


    ==========================================================================

    Pope Gregory IX, Council Tolosanum, 1229 A.D.:

    "We prohibit laymen possessing copies of the Old and New Testament ... We forbid them most severely to have the above books in the popular vernacular." "'The lords of the districts shall carefully seek out the heretics in dwellings, hovels, and forests, and even their underground retreats shall be entirely wiped out."


    reigned from 16 June 1846 to his death in 1878. He was the longest-reigning elected pope in the history of the Catholic Church — over 31 years.

    Pope Pius IX, (1846 - 1878.) Quanta Cura:

    "Socialism, Communism, clandestine societies, Bible societies... pests of this sort must be destroyed by all means."

    ================================================================

    The Catholic church on anti-Semitism,

    Will Durant writes in The Story of Civilization:


    The Council of Vienna (1311) forbade all association between Christians and Jews. The Council of Zamora (1313) ruled that they must be kept in strict subjection and servitude. The Council of Basel (1431-33) renewed canonical decrees forbidding Christians to associate with Jews...and instructed secular authorities to confine the Jews in separate quarters, compel them to wear a distinguishing badge, and ensure their attendance at sermons aimed to convert them.


    In 1243 the entire Jewish population of Belitz, near Berlin, was burned alive on the charge that some of them had defiled a consecrated Host. [...] In 1298 every Jew in Rottingen was burned to death on the charge of desecrating a sacramental wafer. Rindfleisch, a pious baron, organized and armed a band of Christians sworn to kill all Jews; they completely exterminated the Jewish community at Wurtzburg, and slew 698 Jews in Nuremberg.

    "the ecclesiastical Council of Zamora (1313) decreed the imposition of the badge, the segregation of the Jewish from the Christian population, and a ban against the employment of Jewish physicians by Christians, or of Chrsitian servants by Jews

    The Story of Civilization: Part IV "The Age of Faith" by Will Durant. Simon and Schuster, New York, 1950.


    Pope Eugenius IV (1431-47)...added that Jews should be ineligible for any public office, could not inherit property from Christians, must build no more synagogues, and must stay in their homes, behind closed doors and windows, in Passion Week (a wise provision against Catholic violence)....


    In a later bull Eugenius ordered that any Italian Jew found reading Talmudic literature should suffer confiscation of his property. Pope Nicholas V commissioned St. John of Capistrano (1447) to see to it that every clause of this repressive legislation should be enforced, and authorized him to seize the property of any Jewish physician who treated a Christian.


    As one of many examples of the decrees issued by Popes in support of persecuting and murdering non-Catholics, a 1487 bull of Pope Innocent VIII commanded that people "rise up in arms against" the Waldensians and "tread them under foot".


    Catholic historian Peter de Rosa writes in Vicars of Christ (Crown Publishers, 1988), "Of eighty popes in a line from the thirteenth century on not one of them disapproved of the theology and apparatus of the Inquisition. On the contrary, one after another added his own cruel touches to the workings of this deadly machine."
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    ==================================================

    We know from the decrees of Popes and councils that the RCC viewed itself as having authority over the state.


    The Fourth Lateran Council, for example, the ecumenical council that dogmatized transubstantiation, declared (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/lat4-c3.html):


    Other councils, such as Vienna, issued anti-Semitic decrees that ordered the persecution of Jews. The persecution of other groups, such as the Waldensians, was also ordered by the RCC.

    For example, Pope Innocent VIII issued a bull in 1487 ordering that people "rise up in arms against" and "tread under foot" the Waldensians.

    Roman Catholic and former Jesuit Peter de Rosa writes in Vicars of Christ (Crown Publishers, 1988),


    Catholic historian Peter de Rosa writes in Vicars of Christ (Crown Publishers, 1988), "Of eighty popes in a line from the thirteenth century on not one of them disapproved of the theology and apparatus of the Inquisition. On the contrary, one after another added his own cruel touches to the workings of this deadly machine."

    ================================================================


    The Catholic historian von Dollinger writes in The Pope and the Council,





    =============================================================================

    High level catholic sources quoted in the public press -


     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Debunking the claim that civil authorities being to blame for what happened under the iron fisted rule of the RCC

    =========================================================

    Thomas Bokenkotter is a Catholic and a historian of the Catholic church. His book "A Concise History of the Catholic Church" reveals some non-flattering details of history for which many Catholics choose to attack their own historian for daring to admit to certain details of history.

    In his own preface he says that if he is guilty of anything - it is in not admitting to enough non-flattering details to fit the actual history of the church.

    "In spite of all my efforts I realize the book has its share of shortcomings and omissions which are perhaps inevitable in a book of this scope. Some critics, for instance, have noted, with a certain amount of justice perhaps, a tendency to glide over the negative and dark aspects of the Church's history... I can only say that after writing this book I am more aware than ever of how difficult it is to produce a balanced account of the complex concatenation of events, ideas, and personalities that constitute historical reality" ibid. p.IX

    In Bokenkotter's book "A Concise History of the Catholic Church" we find this candid remark concerning the inquisition in the "Historical Catholic Church" - p117

    How popular did this free-handed style of torture become among the spiritually elite?

     
  18. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Because I am googling "DARK AGES" your a few hundred years off.

    Those three, King and Parliament Law put them to death.
     
  19. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Your claim is a JOKE. Catholic teaching is you do not kill. There is no catholic teaching to kill anyone.

    There isn't even 25 million people in Europe and you claim thats how many Catholics killed as result of Lateran IV.


    Here's the kicker tho. I personally have killed ZERO people. Catholic teaching is not to kill anyone period.
    If you murder anyone, or wrongly kill, The church teaches that is a SIN.


    You kill millions by supporting the teachings of SDA who say abortion is not a sin at all.

    And here is the OFFICIAL WEBSITE of the murders you commit today :
    Abortion

    A MURDERER can point at the past all they want, it doesn't make them cleaner.
     
  20. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
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    How about all the Catholics killed by the Protestants, do they get a pass? Evil is evil, no matter which particular faith tradition is guilty of engaging in it.
     
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