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Featured FAITH AND WORKS

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Alex2165, Aug 13, 2020.

  1. Alex2165

    Alex2165 Active Member

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    FAITH AND WORKS

    Psalms 62.12
    12.and steadfast love belongs to You O Lord. You repay to all according to their work.

    Our faith in GOD reflects itself in our works. In order for GOD to judge our faith in Him, first thing He do is to look at our works, because our works is the reflection of our faith.

    John 9.4
    4.We must work the works of Him Who sent Me while it is a day, night is coming when no one can work.

    "While it is a day." Means while it is possible, while it is still opportunity, while we still alive. Subsequently "Night is coming" means no more opportunity or possibility to perform GOD'S works. This period is well described during tribulation time.

    John 14.12
    12.Very truly I tell you, the one who believes in Me will also do the works that I do, and in fact will do greater works that these, because I am going to the Father.

    Word "believes" has much wider meaning, it all depends under which context this word placed. Here it means literally "Faith." And can be read, "The one who have faith in Me, will also do the works I do.

    Acts 20.34-35

    34.You know for yourselves that I worked with my own hands to support myself and my companions.

    35.In all this I have given you an example that by such work we must support the weak, remembering the words of the Lord Jesus He Himself said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.” (Luke 14.13-14)

    Here Paul mentioned one work out of many that Christians suppose to do, "Support the weak." A person could be weak in many things, in material things and even in health.

    Titus 1.16
    16.They profess to know GOD but they deny Him by their actions. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.

    Oh how many times I heard people profess GOD, but then it comes to do something, even very little, which may cost nothing, for the sake of the Lord or human being, suddenly such people trying to avoid this obligation and their responsibility toward GOD and their fellow man. And sometimes do absolutely opposite of what they said or promise.

    James 2.14-22.24.26
    14.What use is it my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

    15.If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,

    16.and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is what?

    Here are mentioned some other works that Christians suppose to do. Concerning clothing, hardly anyone needs it today. But I seen quite number of churches that do not donate the clothes they collected but selling it. Concerning food, indeed, some families struggle to feed themselves for whatever reason, particularly single mothers. I seen some churches participating in food donations, but unfortunately not all. But it could be done and on individual level, and each of us certainly have ability to help some family who struggles to put the food on the table, particularly now, when so many lost their jobs, apartments, and homes.

    17.Even so faith, if it has no works is dead by itself.

    18.But someone may well say, "You have faith, and I have works, show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

    As I mentioned before, the one cannot exist without another.

    19.You believe that GOD is One, you do well, the demons also believe and shudder.

    (Demons know the Christ - (Mark 1.34) (Luke 4.41) (James 2.19)

    "You believe that GOD is One." Believe in what? What Christ is GOD? Yes He is GOD, and even demons believe in shudder, and more, the demons not only believe they know Who He is.

    What else we believe in GOD? Is that enough to believe? So what the difference is between Christians and demons, if we are all "believe" in GOD? One of such differences is work for the glory of GOD.

    20.But are you willing to recognize you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

    I really like how James, without "political correctness" call some people "foolish," because their think that faith can exist without works. Indeed, such people are fools.

    Some scholars believe that this James is the blood-brother of Christ. If I remember right Jesus had 4 brothers and some sisters.

    21.Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

    22.You see, that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfect,

    24.You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

    26.Just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

    No comments needed.

    Revelation 2.23.26

    23.and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches will know that I am the One Who searches minds and hearts, and I will give to each of you as you works deserve.

    We will be judge by GOD according to our works. Because faith is the spiritual entity and only can be proven by charitable physical works to show how strong it is. And if someone of you think that we will be judged according to our faith without works, the judgment perhaps will be that such person have no faith, because he or she has no works. There is no work, there is no faith.

    26.To everyone who conquers and continues to do My works to the end. I will give authority over the nations,

    As you can see, certain rewards will be great, but again, according to the works.

    Revelation 20.12
    12.And I saw the dead great and small, standing before the throne and books were opened. Also another Book was opened, the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works as recorded in the books.

    Revelation 22.12
    12.See, I am coming soon, My reward is with Me to repay according to everyone’s works.

    There are many different works Christian can do to prove their faith and to please the Lord. Of course we cannot heal or resurrect from the dead like Christ did, but we can do good charity and use our own resources whatever they are not only to help our brothers and sisters in our own church but also and to strangers. And as Christ promised, we would not lose our reward.
     
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  2. Walter

    Walter Well-Known Member
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    I think it might be better said as “faith, working through love”. Gal 5:6-7
    6 For in Christ Jesus … faith working through love.

    It is not so much “faith PLUS works” as it is faith THAT works. It is the quality of the faith that is saving. Saving faith produces works. We are justified by grace, THROUGH faith. that same grace that justifies us is the faith that produces good works in and through us.

    Eph 2:8-10
    8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God - 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

    Where many evangelicals will stop reading at verse 9, Catholics continue into verse 10. The grace that saves us through faith is there to make us His workmanship, and to make us walk in the good deeds He has prepared.
     
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  3. Alex2165

    Alex2165 Active Member

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    Literally every Baptist presents this statement in defense of the doctrine - faith only:

    "Eph 2:8-10
    8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God - 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

    Let analyze this statement.

    "by Grace" means by GOD.

    "saved through faith" If faith equals = works, this means that works also equals = faith, because both of these entities cannot be separated. So we can read, "saved through works of faith." As we already know faith is dead without works, and can be proven only through works.

    "and this is not your own doing." Indeed, if we have works of faith, this means that Holy Spirit is active in us, and helping us doing our works of faith.

    "it is the gift of GOD" Yes, to posses a Holy Spirit truly is a gift of GOD (according to our works of faith).

    "not because of works." Not because of works alone without faith. Those who are boasting about their charitable works but doing them not for the sake of the Lord to show His glory but for themselves, for their own sake, to look good in the eyes of the people and be likable among men, such works of course do not do any good for a Christian.

    And here is the difference between secular workers and Christians. Secular workers do their charitable good works for many reasons but not for the glory of the Lord. Christians on the other hand do the same good charitable works only for the name and glory of the Lord. The point is that those who do good works only for themselves should not boast.

    "created in Christ for good works." This part speaks for itself.

    "which GOD prepared beforehand." Yes, GOD always gives to us opportunity to do good works in order to test us and to prove our faith. Just like GOD did with Abraham, testing Abraham's faith by asking him to sacrifice his only son. Abraham could say no to GOD and GOD would not demand or punish Abraham, but certainly would find another man to create for Himself His own priestly nation.

    Of course to sacrifice own son it is not a good deed, but GOD replaced it with a good deed, because GOD justified Abraham's faith through his deed. Abraham's faith proven by his obedient action, and GOD gave Abraham a goat for sacrifice, which is good deed.

    Isaac in this case was forerunner of the Lord Jesus Christ. In order for GOD to prove His faith in His promises to humanity He does not spare His only Son.

    So, if Abraham did not spared his only son for GOD but was ready to sacrifice him, and so GOD did not spare His only Son for the salvation of humanity. And because of it Abraham became an example of highest faith in GOD through his work for GOD.

    "that we should walk in them." Walk in good works for GOD." GOD always gives us opportunity and chance to do good works. Sometimes people can ask for a simple favor, or for something their need, or for some help, and we think that it comes from a person who are asking for these things, but actually it is not. Many these things comes from GOD "which GOD prepared for us beforehand" in order to test us by good works and see our faith in Him.

    And if we hypocritically reject a person's plea or saying to him or her that we will pray for him/her (which is often Christian do), by this we rejecting to do GOD'S work while having resources and time to help.

    And what is going to happen then we eventually will facing our Lord?

    Matthew 25.
    33.and He will put the sheep at His right hand and the goats at His left. (Zechariah 10.3)

    34.Then the King will say to those at His right hand, ‘Come you that are blessed by My Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world,

    35.I was hungry and you gave Me food, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a Stranger and You welcome Me.

    36.I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.

    37.Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw You hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink?

    38.And when was it that we saw You a Stranger and welcomed You, or naked and gave You clothing?

    39.And when was it that we saw You sick or in prison and visited You?’

    40.And the King will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of My family, you did it to Me.’

    41.Then He will say to those at His left hand, ‘You that are accursed, depart from Me into the Eternal Fire prepared for the Devil and his angels. (Matthew 13.49-50)

    42.I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink.

    43.I was a stranger and you did not welcome Me, naked, and you did not give Me clothing, sick and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’

    44.Then they also will answer, “Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of You?’

    45.Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’

    46.And these will go away into Eternal Punishment, but the righteous into Eternal Life.”

    And no matter how people will try twist, and bent, and misinterpreted these words in these statement that you presented, the true meaning of it always will remain the same and unchanged.
     
  4. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I agree.
    But where many stop at verse 10, God's children read the entire chapter and letter.;)

    The grace that saves us through faith was the same grace that chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world, predestinated us to the adoption of children and made us His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to those good works.
    True faith in Christ's finished work on our behalf is the evidence of His grace ( Hebrews 11:1 ), and was never the means of procuring His gift of eternal life, Walter.

    Truly, it is a faith that works, and a faith that is dead without those works...
    Which God has before ordained that His children should walk in them.
     
    #4 Dave G, Aug 17, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2020
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  5. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    No one is saved through works of faith, Alex.
    That would be salvation by works.

    Rather, it was always by His mercy that anyone is saved:

    " But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
    5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
    6 which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
    7 that being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."
    ( Titus 3:5-7 ).

    " Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
    ( Matthew 7:21-23 ).

    Many will even do charitable works in the name of the Lord, but He will still tell them that He never knew them.:Sick
     
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  6. Sai

    Sai Well-Known Member

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    The op is the perfect argument for Calvinist theology. The writer completely understands salvation by grace alone the faith alone in Christ alone plus nothing but without election, cannot own it as the Bible presents it.
     
  7. Alex2165

    Alex2165 Active Member

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    I do not want argue anymore about issue that we justified by grace alone, it became pointless now, because all statements I dad presented in defense of works of faith are conveniently ignored.

    But you Dave G absolutely right when you mentioned that some people pretended to do the works for Christ, but in reality do it for some other reasons, this aspect of "Christian" hypocrisy and deceit you exposed very well.
     
  8. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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  9. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    I often find that those that harp on about losing salvation or salvation by works , are never out preaching gospel and barely share the Gospel. This is the main ' work ' which by their own standards they fail to practice what they preach .This is the contradiction of those that hold to works salvation . They fail the very standards they believe is necessary to maintain salvation.
     
  10. Alex2165

    Alex2165 Active Member

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    1Corinthians 4.20
    20.The Kingdom of GOD depends not on talk (the demagogy), but on power (of works).


    Matthew 5.19
    19.Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

    Even those who teaches Gospel but do not do that they teach, even they have a slight chance of salvation. And for such people as well the Grace of GOD, Mercy, His Compassion, and abundance of Love, revealed itself for the sake of every sinner.

    But on the other hand it also said:

    Ezekiel 18.23
    23.Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked?", declares the Lord GOD, "Rather than that he should turn from his ways and live. (verse 32) (Ezekiel 33.11)

    Proverbs 14.12
    12.There is a way that seems right to a person, but its end is the way to death.

    Proverbs 16.25
    25.There is a way which seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death.

    And here again, just like someone declares himself saved, and one of high position and respect think that he deserves Kingdom of GOD, and just like people who praise the Lord and participate in church affairs think that they worthy to be taken to Heaven, the last word, judgment, and action, always belong to GOD.
     
  11. Sai

    Sai Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm silenced
     
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  12. dberrie2000

    dberrie2000 New Member

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    Walter--I have a question for you:

    When you use the term "faith"--is that a reference to a faith with works--or a faith without works?
     
  13. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    If you say "FAITH working through Love" Catholic will give you a pass.

    But if you insist FAITH ALONE is without Works.
    The Logic is:
    NO WORKS = NO GOOD WORKS = NO LOVE GOD, NO LOVE NEIGHBOR. = NO LOVE= No God (God is love).

    That a FAITH devoid of Love of God = A saving faith.

    That Faith devoid of GOD = saving faith.

    Faith is not a magical sacred word just because you hear it at church. It means TRUST and CONFIDENCE, and it has ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING on allegiance.

    Even DEMONS believe in Jesus Christ.

    In addition. The highest priority for a Catholic is LOVING GOD.

    Protestant wording gives the wrong impression that the highest priority is SALVATION.

    Is Salvation or Heaven worth more than Loving God?

    What "reward" is greater than the GOOD WORK of LOVING GOD?

    So if someone is LOVING GOD and they are told.......well good works like Loving God is not going to earn you salvation, its like so what? You can keep eternal disneyworld, Who tricked you from what is most important?
     
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  14. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    2 Peter 1

    5
    For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love.

    Add Goodness to Faith, why? because it doesn't come with it. Add knowledge, why Because it doesn't come with it, Add Self-control why Because it doesn't come with it, ADD perserverance, Because it doesn't come with it, Add godliness because it doesn't come with it, add Mutal affection because it doesn't come with it,
    ADD LOVE
    ADD LOVE
    ADD LOVE

    Because FAITH doesn't come with it.


    James 2
    22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

    A broken destroyed faith is not going to save you. You want that faith to be complete?^^^


    1 Corinthian 13
    2If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

    Not only can you have ALLLLLLLL FAITH. Faith that MOVES MOUNTAINS, how many mountains has your faith moved? ALL FAITH plus! You know every mystery. You know everything, YOU KNOW the truth. God given gift of prophecy. YOU absolutely KNOW, thats greater than faith PLUS you have ALL FAITH TOO.

    NO LOVE? <---THE ONLY GOOD WORK. You have NOTHING.

    Love is the highest priority of a Christian because GOD is the highest priority of a Christian. GOD IS LOVE.
     
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  15. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Eternal life is pretty crucial . Otherwise you won't be with God .
     
  16. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    1 cor 4.20 20For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.( simple) let's not add to that please .

    mat 5.19 is before the cross

    Eze 18.23 is about ISRAEL and physical life and death
     
  17. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Jesus is the highest priority.
     
  18. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    John 14
    15“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
     
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  19. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Loving God is more important than my life, eternal or not.

    Romans 9
    3For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,

    Matthew 16

    25“For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.


    Tell me what reward or salvation is more important than loving God.

    Is being in heaven more important than loving God?

    Loving God is the greatest of all rewards. Its only a CHORE for gold diggers who are selfish minded.
     
  20. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    So if we break one ,that's it ?
     
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