1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Faith is the result of Election !

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Brightfame52, Feb 1, 2024.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2020
    Messages:
    2,825
    Likes Received:
    511
    Faith:
    Baptist
    2 Thess 2:13-14

    13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

    14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.


    Faith isnt the cause of election but the effect, it comes with having been chosen from the beginning [of time] to Salvation, which Salvation consiteth in Sanctification of the Spirit, which is regeneration, and belief of the Truth which is Faith.

    But it began with Election.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2020
    Messages:
    2,825
    Likes Received:
    511
    Faith:
    Baptist
    If you observe in the OP text, the call of the Gospel comes to the chosen , who has been Sanctified by the Spirit, set apart to the belief of the Truth, which Truth the Gospel is, like Eph 1:13

    13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

    And again Paul is referencing them who had been chosen Eph 1:4

    4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    6,001
    Likes Received:
    479
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So you have people saved prior to their believing so the question then becomes, why faith is even necessary? Plus why was it necessary for Christ to go to the cross at all?

    You have thrown the whole meaning of salvation through faith in the risen Christ out the window.

    What do these verses tell us
    These are Christians who from the beginning of Paul's preaching the gospel message to them had believed. Having believed God chose them by His grace to be saved.
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    6,001
    Likes Received:
    479
    Faith:
    Baptist
    We were chosen in Him to be "holy and blameless" but the condition for one being in Him is faith just as we see in Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvationhaving also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

    Hear, believe, saved simple clear message. "The gospel the power of God for salvation" but the condition "to everyone who believes" Rom 1:16

    Simple clear message faith before salvation.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  5. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    15,620
    Likes Received:
    1,229
    Faith:
    Baptist
    1 Peter 1:2, . . . Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: . . .

    2 Thessalonians 2:13, . . . because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth :
     
  6. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    6,001
    Likes Received:
    479
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I am always amazed that we have people on BB that will deny clear scripture and yet expect us to believe the, shall we say, less than clear scripture they hold out as proof of their view.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2020
    Messages:
    2,825
    Likes Received:
    511
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I presented you a scripture testimony and you dont believe.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2020
    Messages:
    2,825
    Likes Received:
    511
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Again I laid it out with scripture clear, you oppose it.
     
  9. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2020
    Messages:
    2,825
    Likes Received:
    511
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Faith is the result, the effect of election when we consider that being called follows being predestinated which I join with election. Rom 8:29-30

    29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    That word called is the same word Paul used in 2 Thess 2:14

    14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    He called the chosen to salvation in this context Vs 13

    13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
     
    • Like Like x 2
  10. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    6,001
    Likes Received:
    479
    Faith:
    Baptist

    @Brightfame52 you seem to think those verses prove your point but they do not accomplish what you ask of them.

    No Christian would say that God does not know who will come to faith, He is omniscient after all. But knowing is not causing. Those that do trust in His risen Son are predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son. Where you seem to have a problem is that you think only select ones, the predestined ones are called. But that is not what we see in the biblical text or in real life is it.

    We are told to preach the gospel to only the predestined elect, oh wait that’s not what the bible says is it. Mar_16:15 ..."Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. So we see that the command is to call all people to salvation via the gospel message but we know that not all will respond in faith as many will reject the truth.

    What we do know is that from the beginning God has set the condition of salvation, faith in His risen Son. You continue to take select verses in isolation to support your view and reject clear scripture that shows your view to be in error.

    Rom_1:16 "For I {Paul} am not ashamed of {the message} the gospel of Christ, {why} for it is the power of God to salvation" {the condition} for everyone who believes,...
    Hear, believe, saved, That is a simple clear message.

    BF you have missed what the text is telling you in 2Th 2:13-14. Paul is expanding on what he has been saying to the believing Thessalonians regarding the return of Christ. He was admonishing them to grow in sanctification through the Holy Spirit and continued belief in the truth of the gospel message that he had preached to them.

    These verses are not about initial salvation through trusting the gospel message but rather salvation of those that are in Christ at His return.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2020
    Messages:
    2,825
    Likes Received:
    511
    Faith:
    Baptist
    See Im giving you scripture for what I say, you reject it.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    6,001
    Likes Received:
    479
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The scripture that you are giving does not support your view. When you pull verses out of context you can make them say just about anything you want. That is why you need to read verses in context. Doing so will clear up many of your errant ideas.

    You are reading preconceived ideas into the text which the text does not support. If you think your verses support your view then show me how they do.

    I could claim the moon is made of green cheese and when you say it is not just respond like you did. I have told you what I believe and you just reject it. If you want me or anyone else to believe you then show us why we should.

    Surely you have a better argument that "just trust me". If you have clear scripture to support your view then present it.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2020
    Messages:
    2,825
    Likes Received:
    511
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes it does support it, Im not able to make you believe the Truth, thats Gods doing, however what I have done is shown that my view is derived from scripture.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2020
    Messages:
    2,825
    Likes Received:
    511
    Faith:
    Baptist
    @Silverhair

    Thats Salvation conditioned on Christs Death Col 1:21-22

    21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

    22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    6,001
    Likes Received:
    479
    Faith:
    Baptist
    A view derived from scripture taken out of context is still just your view, cults do that all the time. Are we to say that their view is scriptural?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    6,001
    Likes Received:
    479
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You stopped short of the necessary verse BF. It tells you why they are to be considered holy and blameless, it is because they have believed in the risen Christ not one still in the grave.
    Col 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard,

    Context will clear up your errant view BF.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2020
    Messages:
    2,825
    Likes Received:
    511
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It's scripture and you deny it
     
  18. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2020
    Messages:
    2,825
    Likes Received:
    511
    Faith:
    Baptist
    More scripture denial
     
  19. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    6,001
    Likes Received:
    479
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So you fall back too the normal response of those that have no ground to stand on. Blame the other person.

    @Brightfame52 if you had any real scripture that clearly in context supported your view then you would provide it. But since you do not you wave your hands and blame the other person for not agreeing with your errant text.

    Are you not the one that has made, what, 10 threads on the atonement and you can not provide any clear scripture in support of your view. So what you made were just multiple threads of blow and bluster.

    Come on BF, support your view with clear contextual scripture if you can. Your opinion is just that, an opinion.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2020
    Messages:
    2,347
    Likes Received:
    192
    Faith:
    Baptist
    2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

    2Jo 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
    9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
    10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
    11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

    Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

    Mt 7:28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

    Mr 12:38 And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces,
    Lu 4:32 And they were astonished at his doctrine: for his word was with power.
    Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

    Ac 13:12 Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord.

    Ro 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

    1Ti 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,

    1Ti 4:6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

    1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

    1Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

    2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
    Tit 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
    Tit 2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

    Tit 2:10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.

    2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

    I confess that my doctrine is so radically different than the Reformed in all things pertaining to the doctrine of man, salvation, God, the atonement, Christ, faith, reconciliation, determinism, sovereignty, the Holy Ghost and almost everything else in the scriptures, that if they are correct on these doctrines then I am in big trouble. We do not even agree concerning the scriptures themselves. We sure do not agree on the meaning of words and context and the power of the words. But, I am not wrong about these things. Praise God!
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...