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Favoring The TR

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by Rippon, Oct 11, 2011.

  1. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Exactly!

    This is why there is NOT totally ;iteral translation from hebrew/Greek texts to English versions, as have to factor in syntex/grammer/context/synonyms etc for each verse/passage/book, as one has to look at all factors to determine what would be determined as best rendering!
     
  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    If we tally up Matthew, the Comfort analysis has seven examples, but actually there are only two, 11:15 and 15:6.
     
  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    If we tally us Mark, the Comfort analysis has 4 examples, but actually there are only one, 2:16b,

    In Mark 3:14 the NASB does not have the addition "and named them apostles" because the CT does not have the phrase. So yet another example of cooking the books, trying to make the NASB "prefer the TR" when in reality, the NASB does not prefer the TR, it just contains several hit or miss mistakes.

    In Mark 11:26, the verse is bracketed, thus the NASB follows and prefers the CT. Ditto for 15:28.
     
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    An interesting (to me) assertion from the OP was that Comfort thought the TR was superior to the CT in several listed verses. What pray tell would make the TR superior?

    Lets look at a few of the listed verses.

    In Matthew 12:4 we find that the CT and the TR agree yet this was listed as reflecting the superiority of the TR. Strange.
     
  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    In Matthew 14:24 we find a difference, the TR reading "in the midst of the sea" whereas the CT has "many stadia from the land" Both renderings give you the idea that it was too far to swim. So to prefer one rendering over the other seems entirely subjective, the TR winning the style award. But since the support is better for the CT, why not prefer what appears to be what Matthew actually wrote?
     
  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Again, with John 10:29 we must find something significant between out of my Father's hand, (TR) and "out of the hand of the Father." So again a style award, with no real difference, and with the less stylish version (CT) winning the support award.
     
  7. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    Technically, you are correct; "to hear" is in the CT reading. However, what I think you may be missing in this thread is that translators certainly are not slaves to their primary source but, in fact, do pick and choose to use other sources at various places. Single-source translations of the NT (that I am familiar with) are NOT attempts to produce a 'New Testament' (that is reflective of the potential 'original' writings) but usually a focused scholarly treatment of a particular manuscript. Remember, even CT readings in the main text are not certain; often the readings in the apparatus are viable alternatives.
     
    #27 franklinmonroe, Oct 19, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 19, 2011
  8. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    In the WH NU reading it's :"they ate the bread of presentation"
    In the variant/TR reading it's :"he ate the bread of presentation"

    In the words of Comfort:

    But the variant has the earliest (P70) and most diverse testimony. It is also the more difficult reading because the OT passage alluded to here (1 Samuel 21:1-6)implies that David and his men -- not just David--ate the bread,as does the previous verse,which speaks of "the ones with him" (i.e.,David's companions). Thus,the WH NU reading could be represent conformity to the immediate context or the OT passage.
     
  9. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    The support for the CT,specifically the WH NU, is weaker in this case. The TR here has the best manuscript support :Sinaiticus CLW 073 0106 f(1) 33 Maj

    Whereas the WH NU only has B f(13) cop(sa)
     
  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The CT I am using, the 21st edition of Nestle's Novum Testamentum Graece, just has the word meaning "ate", not "he ate" or "they ate." The TR reads he ate, a different form of the same word, but is translated ate in the NKJV thus preferring the CT.

    It seems clear Comfort chose from among the variants of the CT to find his items.
     
    #30 Van, Oct 20, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 20, 2011
  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I certainly cannot dispute this assertion, however the case for scholarly preference is without merit, because the Greek construction is the same in Matthew 11:15 and 43 yet the NASB wording is different. So it is a mistake, not a preferred variant.

    Secondly, some version of the CT might have to hear, like the TR, and it is just not in the CT I have, but then it would be preferring one variant of the CT or another and not the TR. :)
     
  12. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I am not in a position to dispute your assertion of "best manuscript support" but evidently the scholars who created the CT disagree with this assertion.

    As with some scribe making Matthew 11:15 read like Mark 4:9, here we have some scribe making Matthew 14:24 read like Mark 6:47.
     
  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Returning to the OP, Comfort indicated 12 verses where he preferred the TR over the CT.

    Matthew 12:4 contrasted "he ate" with "ate" but the NKJV translated "he ate" as simply "ate" showing that group of translators preferred the CT or at least one variant of the CT.

    Matthew 14:24 contrasted "midst of the sea" with "many stadia from the land" but this seems a corruption to make Matthew 14:24 read like Mark 6:47.

    John 10:29 contrasted "My Father" (TR) with "the Father" (CT).

    John 13:2 contrasted "after supper" (TR) with "during supper." (CT)

    Romans 11:31 contrasted "receive mercy" with "now receive mercy." A rare example of TR having fewer words than the CT.

    Romans 14:21 contrasted "stumble or offended or weakened" with "stumble." Appears to be a scribal expansion.

    1 Cor. 7:15 contrasted "called us to peace" with "called you to peace".

    1 Cor. 14:38 is another example where the CT I have and the TR read the same, but the TR differs from another variant of the CT.

    Galatians 1:3 contrasts "God the Father and our Lord" with "God our Father and the Lord."

    Galatians 5:24 contrasts "of Christ" with "of Christ Jesus." A example where the TR version may be the correct one, per the NET apparatus.

    Philemon 6 contrasts "in you in Christ" with "in us in Christ."

    Colossians 3:22 again seems to present the same text in the TR and CT I have.
     
  14. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    WH NU : they ate
    var/TR : he ate

    That's what Comfort said. Even though the TR has the best manuscript support :"its agreement with Mark 6:47 causes one to suspect it as a case of scribal harmonization."

     
  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I know nothing of Greek, but in Matthew 12:4 it appears the difference is in the word translated "ate." The singlar form "ephagen" is in the TR and the plural form "ephagon" is in the CT. So I prefer translating it as "ate" which is correct no matter which word was inspired and which was miscopied. See the ESV and NKJV.

    My copy of the CT, Nestle's 21 edition does not have the "what" word in the Greek text. So to repeat, Comfort has chosen a variant to create a contrast in favor of the TR but another variant of the CT, i.e. Nestle's 21 edition, reads like the TR. Note that all these CT based versions read the same, NIV, ESV, NASB,and HCSB, God is greater than all.

    We agree on 1 Cor. 7:15 the difference is in whether the inspired text read us or you.

    And again at 1 Cor. 14:38, Nestle's 21 edition reads "but if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant." This is the same as one of the variants of the TR you provided, i.e. "if he is ignorant,let him be ignorant."

    We agree on Galatians 1:3.

    We agree on Philemon 6.

    And you were right and I was wrong on Colossians 3:22, I missed the difference of Lord as the last word in the CT but God being the last word in the TR. However, I see no reason to prefer the TR, especially considering the context.
     
  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    In summary, of the 12 examples provided in the OP, it looks like only the TR variant of Galatians 5:24 should be preferred. In the case of the other eleven, the Nestle 21 edition either reads the same or provides the preferred variant in my opinion.
     
  17. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    As I have already stated --it's the difference between "thy are" and "he ate."
    What passage are you referencing?
     
  18. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Make that ":they ate" and "he ate."
     
  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yes, the plural could be translated, they ate, and the singular could be translated he ate, but either word, singular or plural could be translated "ate"
    which I would prefer because their is no chance it misrepresents scripture. That is why, I believe, both the TR NKJV and the CT ESV translated both words as "ate."
     
  20. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    My copy of the CT, Nestle's 21 edition does not have the "what" word in the Greek text of John 10:29. So to repeat, Comfort has chosen a variant to create a contrast in favor of the TR but another variant of the CT, i.e. Nestle's 21 edition, reads like the TR. Note that all these CT based versions read the same, NIV, ESV, NASB,and HCSB, God is greater than all.

    The two variants are (1) "what" the Father has given me is greater than all - saying the gift is greater than all, and (2) My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all - saying God and not what was given, is greater than all. The second variant is how my CT reads, and how the NIV, ESV, NASB, and HCSB read.
     
    #40 Van, Oct 24, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 24, 2011
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