Fighting about fighting- Any hope for us?

[Michael Wrenn]

I started a thread about the fight that some respected members of the SBC are trying to start before the convention about soteriology.

I called for us to avoid a feud that will definitely hurt, possibly cripple, the SBC.

I pointed out that the denomination has been open to both soteriologies since its conception- under the leadership of both Calvinists and non-calvinists.

I said that we need each other in this movement to keep the SBC a viable influence so desperately needed in our culture.

AND BAM!

Out broke a fight over fighting. Not only do we fight but we fight about fighting. And I half expect us on this thread to fight about fighting about fighting.

Is there any hope for us?

Not to worry. Ever heard the old saying, "Baptists multiply by dividing?"

Let's get ready to rumble!

 

[JPPT1974]

Have people ever heard of, agree to disagree! As unfortunately why do they do things the hard way?! And not do things as civilized adults!

 

[Iconoclast]

Have people ever heard of, agree to disagree! As unfortunately why do they do things the hard way?! And not do things as civilized adults!

:thumbsup::thumbsup::wavey:

 

[Benjamin]

The links I offer are solid and you cannot refute most any of them.

Icon, in any links that you have offered and that give scriptures those scriptures have been interpreted through philosophical principles; I am sorry that you can understand that. I have even pointed to their use of it and have indeed refuted waht you have given to back up your beliefs. I realize you that you believe those people who have offered those scriptures with their interpretations have also been inspired with special insights and since you agree with them that makes you right. But, somehow you are missing the value of philosophy and relying on that you believe you have special insights and think of it as something other than your own philosophy.

You claim to use scripture, but when I pin you on your interpretations of those scriptures you simply resort to using poor intertretations from other scriptures rather addressing your problems with your interpretations. I think you believe you can keep from being defeated in an argument that way; because you can resort to saying you only use scriptures, but it doesn't add up that you have put forth a good argument because there is no logical reasoning given to back up your argument that your interpretations are true, hence ...the value of philosophy. I’m not going to chase all your rabbits dude; you wouldn’t admit I caught them anyway if I had their legs tied to a string around my neck while standing in front of the stove cooking rabbit stew.

 

[Iconoclast]

Icon, in any links that you have offered and that give scriptures those scriptures have been interpreted through philosophical principles; I am sorry that you can understand that. I have even pointed to their use of it and have indeed refuted. I realize you that you believe those people who have offered those scriptures with their interpretations have also been inspired with special insights and since you agree with them that makes you right. But, somehow you are missing the value of philosophy and relying on that you believe you have special insights and think of it as something other than your own philosophy.

You claim to use scripture, but when I pin you on your interpretations of those scriptures you simply resort to using poor intertretations from other scriptures rather addressing your problems with your interpretations. I’m not going to chase all your rabbits dude; you wouldn’t admit I caught them anyway if I had their legs tied to a string around my neck while standing in front of the stove cooking rabbit stew.

Benjamin,
that is just your excuse to not in fact deal with the verses offered. You just dismiss them because you cannot in reality deal with them at all.
So you jump into this philosophical maze.
recently you post a couple of sections from 1 sam....then you go on and on with speculations that are against clear scriptures.or scriptural principle.

There is a biblical worldview that a christian has. It is scripturally derived out of the scriptures. Not carnally derived from failed human philosophies.
That is what you fail to grasp from my point of view. That is what is different about what you refer to and what I speak of.

Christians start with the word revealed from God.
Carnal philosphy starts with man...fallen man...seeking to re-interpret the reality God as Creator has given us. This is simple but a watershed issue.
We do not agree because you see me as not following your ---philosphical rabbit trails....yet you accuse me of offering scriptural rabbit trails????
if you have scriptural correction offer it.......re-read your own thread...you offer a section or two from 1 sam....then there is no scripture at all in the whole thread......just rambling discussions ,and disputing of words, that are to no profit.

You claim to use scripture, but when I pin you on your interpretations of those scriptures you simply resort to using poor intertretations from other scriptures rather addressing your problems with your interpretations. I’m not going to chase all your rabbits dude; you wouldn’t admit I caught them anyway if I had their legs tied to a string around my neck while standing in front of the stove cooking rabbit stew

When I offer links from godly teachers you avoid them like an ostritch, or a turtle. Address them scripturally if you can, and I will consider what you offer.

CORRECTION.....In post twenty you inserted two verses one from Gen< one from deut>...I was off by two verses....

 

[Benjamin]

Not carnally derived from failed human philosophies.


Christians start with the word revealed from God.

Carnal philosphy starts with man...fallen man...seeking to re-interpret the reality God as Creator has given us.

Icon, have you ever considered that God uses and has used men from Paul to modern day laymen to explain the meaning of scriptures while using philosophical reasoning skills to do so?

You use a defense of constantly calling others carnal, worldly, fallen men, less than Christian etc. when you can not deal with their good reasoning skills against your arguments while you go about to denying you also use reasoning and act as if you are some kind of an inspired prophet that needs no reasoning, whether you admit of not, and this has been pointed out to you many times. I believe you know this to be true and use this behavior just so you can continue to claim to have won an argument.

Your accusations of calling others carnal etc. is common and used against anyone that disagrees with you and that fact is well known on this board and is reprehensible behavior.

I’ll tell you what I don’t understand; it is why you are allowed to continue to use these types of methods of argument on this Christian debate board!

 

[Winman]

Have people ever heard of, agree to disagree! As unfortunately why do they do things the hard way?! And not do things as civilized adults!

I am old enough to know that folks will not always agree, and sometimes they will never agree. This is true in many things, not simply religion. Myself and another lady would talk about American Idol this year at work. She loved Phil Philips who won, I thought that was ridiculous, as a life long musician I can tell you that guy can't carry a tune in a bucket. But he was cute, and the vast majority of voters are young girls, so he won. He still can't sing.

I can accept that many here believe in Calvinism and will never change. Fine. But the problem is, hundreds of non-members read this forum every day. I am not going to sit back and let the Calvinists indoctrinate unsuspecting persons with what I consider false doctrine. So, I constantly try to show why I do not think it is scriptural. I get very tired of it, and do not enjoy it at all, but a person cannot just sit back and let this stuff go on unopposed.

We are supposed to contend for the truth.

 

[jonathan.borland]

We had a poll here a few months ago, and the non-Cals outnumbered the Cals by a ratio of nearly 2 to 1. However, new Calvinists have an incredible way of multiplying their appearance of numbers. It's like when your turn to volunteer in the nursery and there are only 2 out of 10 that cry the whole time. At the end you swear there must have 30 crying babies in there!

 

[Yeshua1]

But we don't agree that we are saved in the same fashion at all.

Do you hold that you were a sinner, that you were justly under the wrath and judgement of God?

That you could NOT earn/merit salvation by good works/observing the law as required by God?

that Jesus, Son of God/Messiah, was the lamb of god, whose death provised the means to have God freely justify and saved those who placed faith in him and his work ontheri behalf?

IF you agree to that, regardless Cal/Arm, are we all one in Christ, just differing on the 'fine points?"

 

[Luke2427]

Note that I made light of your system and you returned with a personal attack on my character along with all "non-cals".

Show where I attacked "all" non-cals, Ben. You can't because I purposely qualified my statement with a word that means nearly the dead level opposite of the word "all". I used the word "some".

You not only run in here and pick a fight but you do it while dishonestly representing the person you pick a fight with.

 

[Luke2427]

Luke, no non-Cal here hates Calvinists, or at least I don't. Now, I absolutely disagree with Calvinism, just as I disagree with many other theologies, but I don't hate them either.

Now, I do get very frustrated with Calvinists. I am sure you know what I believe, and I always post scripture to support what I believe. So, sometimes I get frustrated when I feel that Calvinists will not accept what I view as OBVIOUS proof in scripture that they are in error. I could name many examples right now, but I won't.

Winman, what seems clear to many, if not most of us, is that you don't understand the Scriptures you post.

Copying and pasting Scriptures that do not say what you say they say is pointless.

All it amounts to is granting you a feeling of superiority because you get to say "I always post Scripture!"

Nobody uses the Scriptures more than cults in support of their doctrines. I'm not saying that you are cultic but I am pointing out that this claim of yours that you always post Scripture is meaningless. So what? So do Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons.

 

[Luke2427]

You are not going to work, yourself, to avoid any feud with false statements like that.

It's not false.

 

[Tom Bryant]

I think I'm going back to the peace and calm of the IFB's. (no smiley face, I'm serious)

 

[Iconoclast]

Your accusations of calling others carnal etc. is common and used against anyone that disagrees with you and that fact is well known on this board and is reprehensible behavior.

I’ll tell you what I don’t understand; it is why you are allowed to continue to use these types of methods of argument on this Christian debate board!

Benjamin,

Icon, have you ever considered that God uses and has used men from Paul to modern day laymen to explain the meaning of scriptures while using philosophical reasoning skills to do so?[/

Again...considering this idea, I do not see it as you do. God does not need men , to explain or help out what he has declared in scripture. He uses men who are faithful in the word to teach what he has declared.
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

You use a defense of constantly calling others carnal, worldly, fallen men, less than Christian etc. when you can not deal with their good reasoning skills against your arguments while you go about to denying you also use reasoning and act as if you are some kind of an inspired prophet that needs no reasoning, whether you admit of not, and this has been pointed out to you many times. I believe you know this to be true and use this behavior just so you can continue to claim to have won an argument

Benjamin, why do you feel the need to mis-represent those who post different than you? Is that the only way you can respond? you say:

You use a defense of constantly calling others carnal, worldly, fallen men, less than Christian etc

Scripture warns against false brethren,tares among the wheat,,jude warns against men who creep in unawares, false teachers,etc. If i repeat these warnings in a post, that does not mean i am calling someone carnal.
A christian can repeat the ideas and teachings of the ungodly, so we are to be on guard against this kind of error.

you go about to denying you also use reasoning and act as if you are some kind of an inspired prophet that needs no reasoning, whether you admit of not, and this has been pointed out to you many times. I believe you know this to be true and use this behavior just so you can continue to claim to have won an argument

You can believe what you want. You can even believe error if you want. You are a free moral agent. Do not try and project your false beliefs on me however.

I’ll tell you what I don’t understand; it is why you are allowed to continue to use these types of methods of argument on this Christian debate board

What you do not understand is that most do not share your views, ideas, or rants.Most see through your shallow attempts to falsely represent myself and other cals, twisting what we say.Other people can read and be objective.
Even if they do not agree theologically.

They for the most part do not agree with your judgemental and bitter ideas.
It seems to be you calling names, and ridiculing.
Because I drive a truck does not mean that you can look down upon drivers as you have done. God has His elect in all kinds of vocations.
I am not a psychologist but your anger seems to cloud your ability to think clearly on this. You do the same with other cals....I just speak up about it to you so perhaps you will repent of thinking of yourself more highly than you ought.
Anything but scriptural responses .


here from this same thread;
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benjamin
Note that I made light of your system and you returned with a personal attack on my character along with all "non-cals".


Show where I attacked "all" non-cals, Ben. You can't because I purposely qualified my statement with a word that means nearly the dead level opposite of the word "all". I used the word "some".

You not only run in here and pick a fight but you do it while dishonestly representing the person you pick a fight with.
__________________
sounds like others see the same thing about the emperors new clothes!

 

[Yeshua1]

Benjamin,


Again...considering this idea, I do not see it as you do. God does not need men , to explain or help out what he has declared in scripture. He uses men who are faithful in the word to teach what he has declared.
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.



Benjamin, why do you feel the need to mis-represent those who post different than you? Is that the only way you can respond? you say:

Scripture warns against false brethren,tares among the wheat,,jude warns against men who creep in unawares, false teachers,etc. If i repeat these warnings in a post, that does not mean i am calling someone carnal.
A christian can repeat the ideas and teachings of the ungodly, so we are to be on guard against this kind of error.




You can believe what you want. You can even believe error if you want. You are a free moral agent. Do not try and project your false beliefs on me however.




What you do not understand is that most do not share your views, ideas, or rants.Most see through your shallow attempts to falsely represent myself and other cals, twisting what we say.Other people can read and be objective.
Even if they do not agree theologically.

They for the most part do not agree with your judgemental and bitter ideas.
It seems to be you calling names, and ridiculing.
Because I drive a truck does not mean that you can look down upon drivers as you have done. God has His elect in all kinds of vocations.
I am not a psychologist but your anger seems to cloud your ability to think clearly on this. You do the same with other cals....I just speak up about it to you so perhaps you will repent of thinking of yourself more highly than you ought.
Anything but scriptural responses .


here from this same thread;
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benjamin
Note that I made light of your system and you returned with a personal attack on my character along with all "non-cals".


Show where I attacked "all" non-cals, Ben. You can't because I purposely qualified my statement with a word that means nearly the dead level opposite of the word "all". I used the word "some".

You not only run in here and pick a fight but you do it while dishonestly representing the person you pick a fight with.
__________________
sounds like others see the same thing about the emperors new clothes!

Could all of this infighting be under the principle paul laid out for us?

That those holding to cal theology in regards to Sotierology, should be the stronger brother showing tolerance and respect for weaker bethren?

That we should NOT be arrogant, but trying to help them come to a fuller understanding of the truths they already know?

be considerant and patient?

 

[Iconoclast]

Could all of this infighting be under the principle paul laid out for us?

That those holding to cal theology in regards to Sotierology, should be the stronger brother showing tolerance and respect for weaker bethren?

That we should NOT be arrogant, but trying to help them come to a fuller understanding of the truths they already know?

be considerant and patient?

This is why most churches use a confession of faith. It protects against ungodly division.You cannot get along with someone who opposes truth. We are not told to get along with those who oppose truth.
Non cals come into a cal church and are able to learn, They cannot teach the other ideas or undermine what the church holds to. Having questions is one thing. Undermining main teachings of the historic faith is no small matter.

 

[Yeshua1]

This is why most churches use a confession of faith. It protects against ungodly division.You cannot get along with someone who opposes truth. We are not told to get along with those who oppose truth.
Non cals come into a cal church and are able to learn, They cannot teach the other ideas or undermine what the church holds to. Having questions is one thing. Undermining main teachings of the historic faith is no small matter.

Would say that IF a non cal or arm was attending a professing Cal church, up to them to keepthe peace and try not to "convert the bethren"

Would also say that they should be allowed to attend and not be singled out as being 'the heretic!"

My church has had to face this challenge, as sen pastor is evangelical arminian, while elders mainly cal!

We would be baptist cal, holding to pre mil eschatology!

there is one lone wolf elderholds to arminianism, and him and I keep trying to "convert" the other!

 

[Benjamin]

Originally Posted by Benjamin:
You use a defense of constantly calling others carnal, worldly, fallen men, less than Christian etc.

Scripture warns against false brethren///,tares among the wheat,///,jude warns against men who creep in unawares,/// false teachers,etc. If i repeat these warnings in a post, that does not mean i am calling someone carnal.
A christian can repeat the ideas and teachings of the ungodly, so we are to be on guard against this kind of error.

I am on guard against error that's why I tried to help you with your critical thinking skills regarding logical reasoning and debate skills.

Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
(2Ti 2:15)

It really wouldn't hurt if you and Luke were to take a class on basic logic so you guys could reason properly while you're trying to rightly divide that word of truth. :thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

I am on guard against error that's why I tried to help you with your critical thinking skills regarding logical reasoning and debate skills.

Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
(2Ti 2:15)

It really wouldn't hurt if you and Luke were to take a class on basic logic so you guys could reason properly while you're trying to rightly divide that word of truth. :thumbs:

:laugh::laugh::laugh: If I need help from you I will let you know.I am sure Luke is also happy you have made this sincere offer! thanks so much

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

:laugh::laugh::laugh: If I need help from you I will let you know.I am sure Luke is also happy you have made this sincere offer! thanks so much

Ohhhhh heck. Bush Wackers always say the nicest things .... right before they shoot you.....in the back :laugh: