Featured Five questions??

1. I guess I have not heard anyone actually make these assersion, in describing thier DoG system this way...it is usually the non-cals who say this ABOUT the view they reject, at least in my experience.

2. If there cals who say things that sound like this, it is probably by way of emphasising the depth of inability to turn to Christ on thier own...but I suspect if pressed, they would clarify to say something like what I have said...I could be wrong. Is it ICON or Preacher4truth you are thinking of saying these things? Maybe they will weigh in here.

3. I should note that your description would apply to the beliefs of primitive Baptists, in that they have said that if someone shows ANY interest in the bible or gospel at all, it is evidence that they are already regenerate...even if they do not yet believe the Gospel, or have even heard it yet...So Your descriptions do fit their particular beliefs, I believe.

 

Perhaps better questions would be:

1. Why did Adam and Eve try to hide from God?
2. What do the fig leaves represent?
3. Who took the initiative in seeking?
4. Who provided a covering for the sin of Adam and Eve?
5. What does the shedding of innocent blood to provide that covering [atonement] represent?

"Dead in trespass and sin" means the complete inability to reconcile ourself to God, that is "Total Depravity". It does not mean physical death as you seem to recognize in the 1st question.

As far as the seal that was to prevent others from partaking of Cain's sin!

I believe it is a mistake to take this story literally. Jesus Christ was using some "figure of speech" similar to a parable to teach the following:

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Man has a body and a soul. The soul or "spiritual nature" of men never ceases to exist, whether in this life, in the presence of God after the death of this body, or whether in the lake of fire after the death of this body.

You really need to understand what "spiritually dead" mean. "Spiritually dead" does not mean that the soul is dead like a dead body. "Spiritually dead" means the complete inability to reconcile ourself to God, that is "Total Depravity", as I noted above.

One more time: You really need to understand what "spiritually dead" mean. "Spiritually dead" does not mean that the soul is dead like a dead body. "Spiritually dead" means the complete inability to reconcile ourself to God, that is "Total Depravity", as I noted above.

 

The reason being God can commune with whom he wants to deal with. God had set forth a purpose he was bringing about through the man he had created in his image, but who was subject to deceit and corruption through the lust of the flesh, that is a living soul. How many living souls do you think existed during the period we call the OT period. Millions? Yet God communed with very,very few, For he only communed with these dead in trespass and sin living souls when it was according to his purpose.

Abram in all probability worshiped idols. We know for sure his father did. But God called him. Abram became Abraham the believer because God called him for a purpose. There were at least thousands or tens thereof living souls dead in trespass and sins living in the region Abram was called from, yet God only called him, to our knowledge.

Saul was an unbeliever going down the road to injure more of the called out ones of Almighty God and in an instant he became a believer. How? By the call of God just like Abraham. Paul didn't change his mind, God changed his mind.

Romans 1 is about the world of living souls dead in trespass and sins anf yet even then God has chosen some of them according to his purpose.
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The Israel there were the only people of all the earth of whom God did know
and I would say the great majority of them are blind. Saul, loved God and thought he was being obedient to the God he loved but he was ignorantly blind in unbelief until God through his Son Jesus called him to belief.

Preach the gospel unto every creature.

Who then is Paul, and who [is] Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

God increased the believers. They did not believe and then God increased.
God increased the number of believers.

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

The end of this age and the beginning of the age to come.

A glorious age. Satan will no longer be able to deceive the living souls.

 

Great set of questions! I have not read past the opening post, and I see we are on page 5.
So if my answers are redundant, please ignore them.

1. When did Adam and Eve spiritually die? When their eyes were opened with the knowledge of good and evil? When they were separated from the tree of life. I think the second possibility is more likely. Did there “death” (separation) result in total spiritual inability? Nope, God put an angel in place to preclude any attempt at re-entry. Thus, also separated from God and therefore spiritually dead, God thought they had the capacity to seek the tree of life.

2. Cain, Abel, and all humans in existence were “spiritually dead” separated from the tree of life. God can communicate with spiritually dead people directly, and indirectly. He is all powerful and does as He pleases.

3. The rich man was in torment, aware of his condition, and able to seek a “more tolerable” condition, for himself and his loved ones. Thus being spiritually dead, i.e. separated from God, does not result in total spiritual inability.

4. See the answer to question #3.

5. Being spiritually dead, i.e. separated from God, does not preclude piling up wrath. Therefore, volitional sin where a “dead” sinner goes against what He knows is a more godly way indicated yet again some limited ability to discern some spiritual things.

 

You are getting close!

 

I believe the sequence to be.

God is taking out of the nations a people for his name. He does this by giving them (the elect) the Holy Spirit. They can be given the Holy Spirit because Jesus was obedient unto death and was resurrected from the dead with power, according to the Spirit of holiness by God the Father. He received the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father and then it could be given to those called for his name.

After this taking out of the nations a people for his name, Jesus will return and build again the tabernacle of David.

Then the residue of man will seek the Lord and the people called from the nations for his name.

The healing of the nations will follow.

Those God calls can hear the call however dead they are and just as those with Paul on the road to Damascus the ones not called will not be able to understand for they are not called.

God is not calling all and some believe. God is calling whom he will and they do believe.

Just my humble understanding. Right or Wrong.

 

:thumbs::applause::thumbs::applause:

 

So it sounds like Cals and non-cals all agree that spiritually dead does not mean completely unable to do anything.

 

The matter is, like in another current thread, complex.

People who need everything to be simple and easy will never be able to see the Doctrines of Grace.

Like the Creation that comes from God, biblical theology is characterized by irreducible complexity.

It is lovely at a glance but the deeper you delve the more beautifully complex it gets. And the more complex layers you peel back the more your mind is boggled with the brilliance and glory and majesty of the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, triune God.

There is life before conversion so that conversion can take place. But this life is the life of the seedling. As that life grows it enables it's host to see what the host could not see before and understand what the host could not understand before and desire what the host could not desire before.

But this is not salvation- not yet. The life is in the incubation stage. But eventually the life grows until there is repentance and faith. One man planted, another watered but God gave the increase.

Then the life is matured into that glorious never-ending state called eternal life.

That's not simple. But it's what the Bible unequivocally teaches- and it is beautiful.

Its alot simpler to believe it works like this- death-faith-eternal life. But that is way blander and simpler than the Word of God reveals.

 

1 Corinthians 1:27:
But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.

I guess that means the one's God chose to save will never be able to understand their salvation. Good thing He put Calvinists here too, so that they can explain it to them. :smilewinkgrin:

 

Actually, really, truthfully, I mean it! If one who is saved by the Grace of God ponders a little he will have to admit he cannot understand why God saved him.:thumbsup::tongue3::smilewinkgrin::laugh:

 

Actually, we would say the unregenerate needs to be given spiritual life in order to respond to the gospel and be saved, and that this all happens at the same instant. We do not believe there are Regenerated, but unsaved people walking around.