Forfeiting Salvation versus Losing Salvation - What is the difference?

What does "damn" mean?

What does "hell" mean?

What does "adoption" mean?

What does the Greek word "aidios" mean?

What does the Greek word "aiOn" mean?

 

HP: Whatever you see as ‘none opinion evidence’ given by HOG that is indeed no evidence that the word translated 'eternal' in the Scriptures today does not bear the same meaning that it did to the authors of Scripture. The injection of novel notions such as you and HOG try to attach to the clear meanings of the word is simply baseless. Since when did dictionaries or works such as the ED of the NT become mere opinions of mine?

When you make a claim such as you and HOG have, the burden of proof indeed does lie upon you to substantiate such claims. Show us one reputable exegetical dictionary or indications by works such as Strong’s that would support your novel notion that the GK word translated ‘eternal’ does not mean forever or everlasting.

 

HP: First things first. You have not proved by any stretch of the imagination that the word translated ‘eternal’ does not in fact bear the same meaning today as it did to the authors of Scripture, i.e. forever or everlasting. Where is your supporting evidence for such a novel idea? Can you support such an idea from Strong’s or an Exegetical dictionary, or any other reputable source?

 

HP: Sure I see eternal security in these passages,………..IF. What I do not do is to elevate these passages to a place that destroys the meaning and intents of numerous other passages that clearly place our standing before God in this world as conditional upon our continued obedience. John 8:31 b “IF ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;” Ga 5:1 ¶ Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.” 1Ti 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.” Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, IF we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.”

In this world we walk by faith. As long as we in obedient to His Word are faithful and continue in obedience, we indeed have a sure hope of eternal security. Just the same, God has not designed eternal security in such a way that a person can be in a state of an evil conscience before God and man and remain in a full assurance of his final standing before the Lord. Our eternal security is conditioned upon our continued obedience. It is not our continued obedience that saves us, but neither will we be eternally secured apart from our continued obedience. Our obedience is thought of in the sense of 'not without which' not ‘that for the sake of.’ We are not saved by our works, but neither will any man be saved apart from our works, for ‘faith without works is dead being alone, ‘ and dead faith will not see any man eternally secured.

 

It has been suggested by HOG and confirmed by JJ that the word eternal at one point in time meant only to convey the concept of a 1000 year kingdom period, and not simply everlasting or without end. To believe this was so involves the crazy notion that all that used the word eternal also understood the concept of a 1000 year Kingdom period. Is HOG or JJ to tell us that the idea of everlasting or without end was never understood or comprehended until this generation or generations of our recent past? If not, HOG or JJ need to inform the list of the GK word or words used to convey such a universally understood concept, or clearly deny the obvious, i.e., there always has been such a universally understood notion known by all men of reason to exist, and to suggest that they had no way of expressing such an idea out side of the confines of a ‘1000 year kingdom period,’ a period most had no idea even existed, is simply absurd.

HOG or JJ have yet to supply the list with one solitary clear piece of evidence that the word 'eternal' was every shown to depict the 100 year kingdom period or that the context of Scripture would point to such a rendering of the word, or that any exegetical work worth its salt has ever suggested such a limited definition placed upon the word. I am still waiting for such evidence.

 

Well said. :thumbs:

 

Heavenly Pilgrim.

Then you must believe then in salvation by works. The scriptures tell us...

"For it is by grace that you are saved, through faith. And that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest anyone should boast"

Being a disciple is not the same as being born again. A person can indeed become ineffective and unprofitable in their walk, but they are still saved.

Wonderful scripture, but it is directed at YOU, not me. It is speaking to those promoting justification by works, and it admonishes them to NOT take that approach.

Great passage. I agree with it completly.

Thats right. And one who is indeed in Christ will never completly leave Christ , never to return. They may have a "prodigal son" experience, but they WILL come back...just like the prodigal did. And...like the prodigal...they never became someone elses son. The prodigal was ALWAYS His fathers son.

God bless,

Mike

 

HP: I do not believe in salvation by works any more than I believe in a pardon by works. One can believe that God sets down conditions for salvation without believing in salvation by works. I use the following illustration to make this point.
A man goes to prison for life, being justly condemned and sentenced by a judge for a specific crime. Can such an individual ‘merit’ a pardon by the performance of good works while in prison? Can such a criminal perform good works to such a degree that the governor is forced to grant this man a pardon based merely on the ‘merit’ of the performance of such good works? Absolutely not. Just the same can the governor, if he so pleases, pardon such a criminal? Of course he can. Still, there is something the criminal MUST do, there is an attitude that MUST be reflected by the criminal to receive a pardon IF the governor is indeed fair and just, and attitudes are tied inseparably to intents of the heart, this very initial intent being none other than a ‘work’ in one sense of the word. The governor MUST witness from the criminal a repentant attitude and a change of heart towards his former criminal behavior if the governor is even to consider such a pardon for the criminal.

What kind of governor would pardon a criminal from prison who had not exhibited true remorse for his crimes? Would not the governor have to be satisfied in his or her mind that IF they pardoned such a criminal that they would not return to commit the same crime or one of like heinous behavior upon society again and that such a criminal possessed and exhibited a true change of heart and attitude towards their former behavior? There are indeed certain conditions that the criminal must meet, works that such a one must of necessity do in order to have the opportunity for a pardon if such an opportunity is offered. These works on the part of the prisoner are in no way meritorious in nature, and in no way force the governor to grant such a one a pardon on their account. Just the same, there are definite conditions or works one must do in order for the governor to consider the pardon. These works are thought of in the sense of ‘not without which,’ not ‘that for the sake of.’ It can properly be stated that one is not pardoned due to any works (in one sense of the word ‘works’ in the sense of ‘that for the sake of’) of the prisoner, but just the same it can be said ‘without works’ (in another sense of the word, that being in the sense of ‘not without which’) one will never see the opportunity to receive a pardon.

Can you see how that works can be thought of as necessary for a pardon, or in the sense of “not without which,” yet at the same time no amount of works can be thought of as “that for the sake of” or forcing the governor to pardon the criminal on the account of works performed by the criminal?

Scripture does not state that works save or keep one saved, just the same, none will be found in Christ in the last day apart from his continued obedience.

 

HP: Mike, can one have a sure hope of eternal life while entangled in the yoke of bondage to sin?

HP: Mike, are you suggesting that a disciple of Christ is not necessarily a believer?

HP: Note the progression implied by the text. 1. Thou hast had a good profession before many witnesses 2. You are being admonished to continue to fight the good fight of faith 3. In this process of fighting the good fight of faith, you are in the processs of laying hold of eternal life

Is not the clear indication given that if one does not fight the good fight of faith, eternal life with Christ may not in fact be the end of their fight? Does not the text suggest that the process of obtaining eternal life is a ‘continuing process’ while we are involved in the good fight of faith, eternal life being the ‘end’ of the fight, as opposed to believing the fight is all over at first light of faith, and all is eternally secure in spite of the results of this fight of faith? Is not this verse in clear keeping with the admonition not to make shipwreck of our faith?

HP: How does this verse suggest as you say. “And one who is indeed in Christ will never completly leave Christ , never to return.?” What is the import of the word “IF” in this verse? Does not the word “if” indicate a conditional promise is being given, conditioned upon holding fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope FIRM unto the end?

 

Hi Mike,
What is an apostate?

 

HP,

Well, I'm sick and tired :BangHead: of trying to get this crazy software to get the quote boxes right. They are messed up, and I'm not going to waste any more time trying to fight this software. (And in some cases it bolds what I dont want bolded as well.)

I hope you can tell whats me and whats you...

ME...The "condition" for salvation is to understand you are a sinner and hoplessly lost, and embrace the Lord Jesus Christ through faith alone.

ME...No

ME...Agreed

ME...Thats the "understand one is a sinner and hopelessly lost" that I referred to in my 1st response of this post.

ME...But you, and we, are not talking about a "work" here. We are talking about an "acknowledgment", or a "mindset". The understanding that I had 25 years ago that I was a sinner, and in need of a savior, was not a "work". It was an acknowledgement of need. Not a "work".

That a different thing than what our disagreement was up until now. That is different than what you said HERE...

(bolding mine)

ME...THATS an articulation of justification by works, and that is a false gospel.

ME...A "disciple" is different than a "believer".

ME...That is a scripture that supports MY view. Our standing before God is not dependant on our ability to succesfully be "good enough". (living under the Law)

ME...The child of God HAS "layed hold of" eternal life.

ME...And born again people WILL "hold fast" until the end. Those who fall permanently away fall because...

"They went out from among us, because they never we a part of us"

True born again people may indeed have a prodigal experience, and *appear* to fall away, but they never turn loose or Christ in their heart, and they DO come to their senses and return.

God bless,

Mike

 

HP,

If one has been born again? Of course! Should a born again person be in that situation? No, of course not, and God will certainly be dealing with that one. Encouraging them to get back on the pathway of truth, disciplining them, chastising them, etc. If a believer gets tangled up in sin they are a prodigal, and God will never give up on them, or disown them. That believer can be absolutly certain that they are still Gods child and God will never leave them.

No, you have it backwards. I am saying that a believer is not necessarily a disciple. They SHOULD be, but sometimes they arent.

Because Christ will not allow it to ever get to that point. He is the Good Shepherd, and we are His sheep.

Because not all are truly born again. Many false believers come into the fellowship with a verbal profession...but they never were regenerated.

Yes. Born again people...no matter how far they might fall...will never completly forsake Christ. They CANT, for His Spirit lives in them, and they are "kept"

We are "sealed" into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit. And that "seal" is our "guarantee", until "the redemption of the purchased posession"

Note...in that passage the Holy Spirit is identified as the "guarentee" of our redemption, not our continued obedience. Thats why we are secure, for Christ said "no one can snatch them out of my hands".

Peace,

Mike

 

You know, when you distort the truth to try to "prove" your point, it makes one ask: "If he has truth on his side, why did he lie?"

Now, the truth is, that I proved, through the use of etymological sources that "eternal" simply meant "a long time" when it was first introduced into the English language. The first written usage of the word was in 1366. It was borrowed from the Old French, which borrowed if from the Latin word for "great age".

Then, I asked you a question (which I'm not surprised that you refused to answer it; it will either show your ignorance or prove my point) of what does the Greek word "aiOn" mean? Well, I'll let the BDAG tell ya: (You need to put down your Strong's; it's good for numbers, but not much else.)

αἰών, ῶνος, ὁ (Hom.+; gener. ‘an extended period of time’, in var. senses)​

a long period of time, without ref. to beginning or end,​

Hom Hom , VIII b.c.—List 5

Arndt, William ; Danker, Frederick W. ; Bauer, Walter: A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature. 3rd ed. Chicago : University of Chicago Press, 2000, S. 32

Now, "aionios" is the adjective form of that. It means "age-lasting", not "forever".

Which brings us to the next point in your less-than-truthful statement that I supposedly said the Greek has no concept of "forever".

Well, I asked you a question, which unsurprisingly you refused to answer, of what does "aidios" mean? This is the closest that the Greek comes to expressing "eternal" (as in "without beginning or ending" or "existing outside of time".) It's used twice in the Bible.

Now, the Greek also has an expression that means "forever" (which many people call "eternal" in modern English) and that is [FONT=&quot]The expression in Greek that means “everlasting” is [/FONT][FONT=&quot]εις τοὺς αιωνας των αιώνων or literally “from the ages unto the ages”. It is found in 16 passages, although there is some doubt about the one in Revelation 14:11 because of the omission of the definite articles. If I'm not mistaken, the KJV always translates this "forever and ever". (If anyone is interested in the places where it's found, let me know.)

The Greek has a word for "eternal"; it has an expression for "forever"; "aionios" does neither of those.

Now, onto another obfuscation of the truth that you have made, I have never said that "eternal" by itself referred to the coming Kingdom. What I said was "eternal" simply meant "a long time". "Aionios" is "age-lasting", and the age to come, we are told plainly in Scripture is 1000 years. (I also pointed out that one society set a time limit on it.) "Aionios", which is found in 65 verses, is translated in a few different ways, but most importantly, if you think it's referring to spiritual salvation, then you believe in being saved by works or you believe that it can be lost or forfeited.

[/FONT]

This question, which is intended to cause someone to form an opinion is an out-and-out lie!

Why do you resort to such tactics?

Neither one of us has ever stated anything even remotely resembling what you are implying.

Instead of lying about what someone says, why not have an honest dialogue about what is actually said or what the Scriptures say?

I have to stop, because your lies are making me angry. I will come back to this subject later.

But, let me ask you another question that I bet you will be hesitant to answer: What is baptism?

 

AmyG,

"Apostacy
The falling away from the faith. It is a revolt against the truth of God’s word by a believer. It can also describe a group or church organization that has "fallen away" from the truths of Christianity as revealed in the Bible."

Hope that helps!

http://www.carm.org/dictionary/dic_a-b.htm#Apostacy

God bless,

Mike

 

Actually, in 1 Timothy 6:12, "lay hold" is an imperative. This book which was written to Timothy, "a genuine child in faith", tells him to "lay hold" on this aionian life. Why would a "genuine child in faith" need to "lay hold" of something he already has?

 

Hope of Glory,

Well then in that context it would be like saying...as in another passage...stand firm, and dont waver. In the midst of false teachers and persecution, dont be disturbed. This is the saving gospel and you are a child of the King. Fear not! Dont be discouraged.

Paul just got done sharing with Timothy concerning false teachers in the previous verses, as he did at the beginning of the letter.

What are you trying to say? That the child of God has to stop every day or so, and LAY HOLD of salvation again?....or we are lost again?

And how often do we have to (((LAY HOLD))) again? Once a week? Every day? Once every hour? Every 10 minutes?

No. The scriptures tell us in 1 John...

"Beloved, I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you might KNOW that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God"

Not to STAY saved...but because they ARE saved.

Blessings,

Mike

 

"Might know" is subjunctive. So, the ones who are believing may or may not know that they have this aionian life.

I can tell you one thing, there's no maybe to it: I (and anyone else) can know that they are saved forever. No subjunctive about that!

I never said otherwise.

BTW, what happens when the person quits believing?

What does it mean to believe on the name?

 

Hmm maybe what Paul said in 1Tim 6 about the act of "laying hold" is also in concert with what he said to the Christians at Philipi about th same topic.

Phil 3
7 But [b]whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss[/b] for the sake of Christ.
8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things[/b], and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,
9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
10 [b]that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings[/b], being conformed to His death;
11 [b]in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have [b]already obtained[/b] it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of[/b] by Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, [b]I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet[/b]; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
14 I [b]press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.


#1. Paul argues that his goal is to “Attain to the resurrection from the dead”
#2. Paul argues that he has not attained it yet – but presses on toward this goal

20 For [b]our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait[/b] for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;
21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

#3. This is “THE hope” for the saved saint on earth today. Peter tells us to “fix our hope COMPLETELY” on this future event.
And in 1Cor 15 Paul states that our faith is “in vain” without it –those who have died and are not yet bodily resurrected have died in vain – have lived for Christ “in vain”.

This is not Paul claiming “we are not yet saved” but it is also not a statement about “coasting on into the resurrection”. Rather our entire focus is on perseverance toward that single goal.

In Christ,

Bob

 

1Cor 9
23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;[/b]
27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached (the Gospel) to others, I myself will not be disqualified

 

2 Tim 2
10For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.
11It is a trustworthy statement:
For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us[/b];
13If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.