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Free Grace theology?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Timtoolman, Sep 15, 2005.

  1. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Sounds much like the heresy of purgatory.
     
  2. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    Amen, Blackbird!

    Matt. 9:16. "But no one puts a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment; for the patch pulls away from the garment, and a worse tear results.
    17. "Nor do people put new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wineskins burst, and the wine pours out and the wineskins are ruined; but they put new wine into fresh wineskins, and both are preserved." (NASB, 1995)

    [​IMG]
     
  3. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    Free Gracer wrote,

    You are quite right in believing that Free Grace theology is full of pork!

    I have posted several Scriptures; you have posted nothing put personal insults.

    There are many Biblical issues and doctrines that have been debated for nearly 2,000 years, and I have a great deal of respect for these issues and doctrines and the men who both defended and opposed them, but the doctrine of Free Grace is absolutely nothing but worthless tripe that does not measure up to intelligent discussion. If, however, you would care to discuss individual passages in the Greek New Testament, one passage at a time, based upon very careful exegesis of the Greek text, with special care and attention to the Greek moods and tenses, along with a discussion of the history of the exegesis of these individual passages in the Greek New Testament, I am willing to discuss them with you. But I will not squander my time to discuss any nonsense with you.

    [​IMG]
     
  4. Free Gracer

    Free Gracer New Member

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    Rom 5:15
    15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.
    NKJV

    The verses could be multiplied. Salvation is a free gift that need only to be received to be possessed.

    First of all, what exactly do you mean here? Are you telling me that unless a man does this and this and this and this he can't be saved?

    Are you telling me that there is some kind of works necessary for my faith to be effectual?

    SO:

    faith in Christ + my willful dying to myself and living for Christ = salvation?

    That is faith + works.

    But Paul says:

    Rom 4:4-5
    4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
    NKJV

    You have mixed something up here. You see, Romans 6:1-10 is positional truth that is true of us perfectly "in Christ". Following from verse 11, Paul tells us to live experientially that which we are positionally in Christ.

    Rom 6:2-10
    How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

    5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
    NKJV

    Notice verse 2. We are positionally dead to sin.

    In vs 11, in light of the fact we are positionally dead to sin, Paul encourages Christians to:

    Rom 6:11
    Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    NKJV

    We are to live who we really are in Christ. Since we are perfectly dead to sin positionally in Christ, we are to experientially RECKON ourselves dead unto sin in our experience.

    Positional truth of the believer are the perfect blessings that attend eternal life. We are baptized with Christ into his death, we have been raised and died unto sin. These are PASSIVE ACTIONS that occur when faith in Christ for eternal life occurs. This is not something we do. It is something that is done to us, positionally blessed in the sphere of "in Christ".

    Rom 6:12-13

    12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
    NKJV

    Paul says, by virtue of your position in Christ, live that way! You have the resurrection power of Christ, use it! Here are entreaties to the will to live in accordance to our position in Christ. Our will is entreated to experientially live in accordance with who we truly are in Christ.

    Vs. 1-10 are not things that we do!

    Notice, Paul here even remarks that some of these Christians who he is talking to may not know of the spiritual blessings of positional truth in Christ:

    "Do you not know...?"

    Here we have the rapid fire of "proof-texts". Are you trying to say to me that by virtue of these texts that I am wrong and you are right?

    Mormons, and JWs both have their prooftexts. The proof is in the pudding of solid biblical, contextual, grammatical, and exegetical analysis. This you have not brought to the table. I have an understanding of these verses, that I am confident takes the context into account. But since you brought these verses up, merely to rapid fire proof-text, apart from any attempt of analysis, I will ask for you to explain what Jesus is saying here.

    This has, by far, been unproved.

    I am asking for a biblically based discussion, founded on exegetical considerations of the Scripture. Every cult in the world has its proof-texts. The "proof" for one's theology should not reside in them. If the rapid fire of such texts are the sole support of your system, then you will have a hard time convincing those who have a critically thinking mind, who like to study the proof-texts to see if they are saying what those who use them imply that they say.

    Antonio
     
  5. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    Your beliefs are NOTHING like mine! The concept of the millennial kingdom postdates the synoptic gospels and the Book of Romans by several years, making your interpretation of very many passages in the synoptic gospels and the Book of Romans an absolute impossibility. My beliefs are based solidly upon the Bible; Free Grace beliefs are based upon ludicrous nonsense, ignorance, distortions, and lies.

    Indeed, Free Grace theology, i.e., the theology popularized in recent years by Zane Hodges that naughty Christians will spend a future, literal millennium in a suburb of heaven where there will be “weeping and gnashing of teeth,” is a spiritual disease that destroys the ability of the human mind to comprehend and reason. The version of James Newman is the even more seriously diseased version put forth by Joey Faust that disobedient Christians will spend a future, literal millennium in hell itself before spending the rest of eternity with Christ.

    The victims of this disease have been deceived by the deceiver of the ages, and they have absolutely no scriptural foundation for their beliefs. When they read the Bible, they read into it their ludicrous nonsense, distortions, and lies that anyone with a healthy mind can immediately recognize for what they are.

    Am I angry that God might save someone who wasn’t living up to my standards? I am angry that the precious blood of Jesus would be so severely mocked as to make it as useless as mosquito infested stagnant water. I am angry that the holiness and righteousness of God are so severely mocked as to make God no more holy or righteous than an old, decaying, Orphan Annie rag doll covered with mold in a dark, musty cellar.

    I have already posted several Scriptures than prove that Free Grace theology is in direct conflict with the very Word of God. And, of course, I could easily post more than a hundred more. Free Grace theology not only cheapens grace, it denies the very substance and power of the grace of God.

    [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]I don't understand what you think free grace implies about God's righteousness. God is righteous and holy regardless of what you or I do, say, or believe. You don't have any scripture that can refute what I believe because it isn't in the Bible. The 'ludicrous nonsense, distortion and lies' you speak of are nothing more than a straight forward, literal reading of scripture, something you cannot do with simple verses like John 3:16. But I'll just let Free Gracer poke holes in your apron of fig leaves.
     
  6. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    Rom 5:15
    15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.
    NKJV

    The verses could be multiplied. Salvation is a free gift that need only to be received to be possessed.

    First of all, what exactly do you mean here? Are you telling me that unless a man does this and this and this and this he can't be saved?

    Are you telling me that there is some kind of works necessary for my faith to be effectual?

    SO:

    faith in Christ + my willful dying to myself and living for Christ = salvation?

    That is faith + works.

    But Paul says:

    Rom 4:4-5
    4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
    NKJV

    You have mixed something up here. You see, Romans 6:1-10 is positional truth that is true of us perfectly "in Christ". Following from verse 11, Paul tells us to live experientially that which we are positionally in Christ.

    Rom 6:2-10
    How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

    5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
    NKJV

    Notice verse 2. We are positionally dead to sin.

    In vs 11, in light of the fact we are positionally dead to sin, Paul encourages Christians to:

    Rom 6:11
    Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    NKJV

    We are to live who we really are in Christ. Since we are perfectly dead to sin positionally in Christ, we are to experientially RECKON ourselves dead unto sin in our experience.

    Positional truth of the believer are the perfect blessings that attend eternal life. We are baptized with Christ into his death, we have been raised and died unto sin. These are PASSIVE ACTIONS that occur when faith in Christ for eternal life occurs. This is not something we do. It is something that is done to us, positionally blessed in the sphere of "in Christ".

    Rom 6:12-13

    12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
    NKJV

    Paul says, by virtue of your position in Christ, live that way! You have the resurrection power of Christ, use it! Here are entreaties to the will to live in accordance to our position in Christ. Our will is entreated to experientially live in accordance with who we truly are in Christ.

    Vs. 1-10 are not things that we do!

    Notice, Paul here even remarks that some of these Christians who he is talking to may not know of the spiritual blessings of positional truth in Christ:

    "Do you not know...?"

    Here we have the rapid fire of "proof-texts". Are you trying to say to me that by virtue of these texts that I am wrong and you are right?

    Mormons, and JWs both have their prooftexts. The proof is in the pudding of solid biblical, contextual, grammatical, and exegetical analysis. This you have not brought to the table. I have an understanding of these verses, that I am confident takes the context into account. But since you brought these verses up, merely to rapid fire proof-text, apart from any attempt of analysis, I will ask for you to explain what Jesus is saying here.

    This has, by far, been unproved.

    I am asking for a biblically based discussion, founded on exegetical considerations of the Scripture. Every cult in the world has its proof-texts. The "proof" for one's theology should not reside in them. If the rapid fire of such texts are the sole support of your system, then you will have a hard time convincing those who have a critically thinking mind, who like to study the proof-texts to see if they are saying what those who use them imply that they say.

    Antonio
    </font>[/QUOTE]If you would care to discuss individual passages in the Greek New Testament, one passage at a time, based upon very careful exegesis of the Greek text, with special care and attention to the Greek moods and tenses, along with a discussion of the history of the exegesis of these individual passages in the Greek New Testament, I am willing to discuss them with you. But I will not squander my time to discuss any nonsense with you.

    [​IMG]
     
  7. Free Gracer

    Free Gracer New Member

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    God does not drag anyone down the path of obedience. Everywhere in the Bible, the WILL of the Christian is entreated to fall in line with God's will. If a life of dedicated obedience necessarily followed justification, there would be no need to entreat the will to:

    Walk by means of the Spirit
    Reckon ourselves dead unto sin
    Stop presenting our members as instruments of unrighteousness
    Present ourselves to God
    Present our members as instruments of righteusness
    Present our bodies a living sacrifice
    Abide in Christ
    etc..... etc....

    We have an old nature and a new nature. The new nature is sinless, but cannot win in a fight against the old nature. It takes an act of the will to submit ourselves to God and yield to the Spirit who then can empower our new nature to live through us. When we walk by the Spirit, we will not by any means fulfill the lust of the flesh. But this is a command and NOT a necessary result of justification. You see, justification solely comes from God, but sanctification is a cooperation between God and the Christian. Therefore, if the Christian is not willing (for whatever reason... he could be immature, a baby Christian, not of strong faith, under heavy stress and anxiety, caught up in the whirlpool of sin, etc) he will not grow in sanctification. EVERYWHERE in the Bible the will is entreated to cooperate with God for the growth in progressive sanctification.

    It is painfully obvious that if a life of perseverant faithfulness, works, and obedience necessarily came as a result of justification, then there would be no need for the literally hundreds of entreaties to our will to conform to God's will, to follow God's commands, and walk experientially as we are positionally, that we find in the Bible.

    Progressive, experiential sanctification is a cooperation between God and man. Notice Paul:

    Phil 4:13
    13 I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.
    NKJV

    It is Paul willing and doing and Christ strengthening.

    Antonio
     
  8. Free Gracer

    Free Gracer New Member

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    This is a falsehood and half-truth. You have misrepresented Zane's position.

    I have carefully studied Zane, have met with him a few times, correspond with him plenty, read all his books and most of his articles.

    This is a straw man.

    Please do your homework.

    Antonio
     
  9. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    James Newman wrote,

    Cluck! Cluck! Cluck!

    :rolleyes:

    Free Gracer can try till he dies of exhaustion, but he will never succeed in poking holes in the truths of the Word of God.

    [​IMG]
     
  10. Free Gracer

    Free Gracer New Member

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    Please convince me of sin. Where are the personal insults you say I have made?

    From the beginning you have been the one with the vitriolic and offensive language.

    I am willing, able, and ready to discuss the bible.

    Let us keep from your rapid-fire prooftexting!

    Prove your points from your scripture rather than quoting them as if the mere reference to them supports your position.

    I have advocated keeping this civil. I want to have a productive and Christian discussion.

    Let us discuss using these principles:

    2 Tim 2:14-17

    Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers. 15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. 17 And their message will spread like cancer.
    NKJV

    Again. I want to discuss the Bible.

    You said that you have studied Free Grace theology. Which books have you read? This can give me an idea of where your characterization of it came from.

    What do you think Free Grace theology teaches that is so heretical? Maybe we can start there.

    Give us a point you believe that Free Grace theology advocates that you disagree with, then use the Bible to object to it.

    This seems reasonable, does it not?

    Antonio
     
  11. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    Free Gracer wrote,

    You have attacked my person and my integrity by accusing me of posting a falsehood and half-truth. That is slanderous defamation and libel. Zane Hodges is a fruitcake full of nutty ideas. I have told the truth and I have not misrepresented it.

    You posted an English translation of several verses from the New Testament. The first verse that you quoted, Rom. 5:15, in NO way supports your argument. I have here in my personal library nearly 240 commentaries on Romans, and hundreds of additional volumes on Paul, his epistles, and his theology. I suggest that before you further misrepresent the words and theology of the beloved Apostle Paul that you spend some time reading what he had to say!

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    Free Gracer wrote,

    You began this post by saying that you “want to discuss the Bible,” but then you immediately started talking about books on Free Grace theology. I do NOT believe that talking about books on Free Grace theology is discussing the Bible!

    If you would care to discuss individual passages in the Greek New Testament, one passage at a time, based upon very careful exegesis of the Greek text, with special care and attention to the Greek moods and tenses, along with a discussion of the history of the exegesis of these individual passages in the Greek New Testament, I am willing to discuss them with you. But I will not squander my time to discuss any nonsense with you.

    [​IMG]
     
  13. Free Gracer

    Free Gracer New Member

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    Craig, you are full of anger. This is no way for a Christian to be acting.

    The fact is, you have misrepresented Zane Hodges. I did not charge you with consciously providing falsehood and half-truth. I have merely charged you with propogating it.

    Prove by reference to Zane's works that he said that unfaithful Christians will spend the millenium in a suburb of heaven.

    He does not say this. Your sources have misrepresented him.

    You say that you studied Free Grace theology. It seems to me that you have merely studied the antagonists to it rather than its proponents.

    Listen to you puff yourself up! Have some humility and humbleness.

    Listen. If salvation is by grace, then it necessarily is free. If it is not free, then it is not by grace.

    Rev 22:17

    17 And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.
    NKJV

    Please. I beseech you, if you continue to discuss this with me, be civil.

    Antonio
     
  14. Free Gracer

    Free Gracer New Member

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    You are the one who said that you have studied Free Grace theology. So I asked you what books you have read. Is that not reasonable?

    It seems apparant to me, correct me if I am wrong, that your information about Free Grace theology does not come from the propenents of it but its detractors.

    We cannot discuss something clearly and profitiably if you are arguing against mischaracterizations about Free Grace theology. If your information on it comes only from its detractors, then how do you really know what it teaches?

    And if you have studied it from its proponents, well, what have you read?

    This is a reasonable question!

    Before we can get to the Bible, we must agree on what we are arguing for and against.

    You say that Free Grace theology generally and Zane Hodges inparticularly teaches that some Christians will live in a suburb of heaven.

    If this is what they teach, I would reject it too! But this is not what they teach, but a mere misrepresentation of it.

    So it is important that we get to the issues and discuss what Free Grace theology really believes. I am not so sure that you can get a proper idea of its position from merely reading its detractors.

    I would care to discuss the Bible, in all fashions of analysis, all but mere prooftexting.

    Yet, unless we get to the heart of our disagreements concerning theology, we would be wasting our time.

    Lets take a point at a time. What is the main specific point that you have against Free Grace theology? Explain it then use an argument from Scripture to counter it.

    You seem to have been wasting your time arguing with me rather than getting down to discussion.

    Antonio
     
  15. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    Free Gracer wrote,

    My education and my personal library are NOT the consequence of anything that I have done; they are a consequence of what Christ has done in my life by His grace. You do not know me at all, and yet you have taken it upon yourself to judge me and ridicule me. I have said absolutely nothing of a pejorative nature about you, but only about a theological system that you are arguing for and those in leadership who teach it. Therefore, I do not believe that it would be Biblically appropriate for me to continue a discussion with you unless you apologize and actively repent of your insults.

    [​IMG]
     
  16. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    Free Gracer wrote,

    Free Gracer wrote,

    Dear Readers,

    This post dramatically illustrates the deceptive tactics that the Free Grace movement uses to propagate their lies and distortions. The English word “grace” is used in very many English translations of the Bible to translate the Greek word χάρις (charis). If you want to know the truth about God’s grace, open up a concordance of the Greek New Testament and learn for yourself how this word is used in the New Testament.

    [​IMG]
     
  17. Free Gracer

    Free Gracer New Member

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    Does anyone else here wish to genuinely discuss these things? Craig, here, does not wish to have a civil dialogue.

    He is unwilling to say where he gets his information about the Free Grace movement. He is unwilling to tell us if he has even read any writings by Free Grace advocates.

    He is unwilling to show verification of his (mis)statements concerning Zane Hodges.

    He is unwilling to comment on any of my substantive posts.

    He merely wishes to assert, charge, and blow smoke.

    I wish to get to the heart, and he wishes to distract with a plethora of red herrings.

    So, I see that there are others here who have detracted rom Free Grace theology. Are you willing to discuss it?

    Antonio
     
  18. Free Gracer

    Free Gracer New Member

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    When you do look up grace, you will find these:

    Rom 11:5-6
    6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace.
    NKJV

    Eph 2:7-9
    8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
    NKJV

    Titus 3:5-7
    5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
    NKJV

    While you are at it, do a study on the word "gift" as well.

    You will see that eternal life is the "gift" from God.

    When was the last time that you saw a gift "costing" something to the receiver? If it is a gift, then it is not something that costs to the receiver. Therefore it is grace!

    Costly to the purchaser: Jesus Christ! (His blood!)

    a GIFT, by GRACE to the receiver.

    Antonio
     
  19. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    Romans 4:4-5
    4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
    5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
     
  20. bapmom

    bapmom New Member

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    Is anyone saying that good works are necessary IN ORDER TO BE saved?


    Are some saying that they expect works as a fruit in the believer's life? Works as a result of salvation, not a cause of salvation?


    Are some saying that this discussion is only about the actual instance of salvation? While others are trying to discuss beyond salvation?


    Or is Craig saying that works are a necessary part of OBTAINING salvation?


    Free Grace theology is a viewpoint that deals with ONLY the moment of salvation. Frankly, once the typical "free gracer" goes beyond this point and starts talking about standards we get accused of legalism......confusing, I know.


    Isn't there just a fundamental difference in what is actually being discussed? rather than one or the other being a "heretic"?
     
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