Free-will, Lucifer and God

[AndThisGospel]

Ez 28:14 “You (Lucifer) were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. 15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you."

God states that His creation of this covering cherub, Lucifer, was "the seal of perfection". How then did Lucifer come to have "iniquity" in him since God, in His sovereignty, created him perfect?

 

[MennoSota]

Of course the word Lucifer is never spoken in the great epic poem about Tyre in Ezekiel 27 & 28. Perhaps before you talk about Lucifer you can do a historical study of Tyre. It will help you to study the entire passage before you imagine it to be a passage about free will.

By the way, the poem Ezekiel penned about Tyre is consider the greatest epic poem in antiquity. It is the masterpiece by which all other epic poems are measured. I am so psyched by God's work in inspiring Ezekiel.

 

[AndThisGospel]

Apparently that was a blatant attempt in trying to minimize the passage.

Some of the descriptions in Ezekiel 28:11–19 go beyond any mere human king. In no sense could an earthly king claim to be “in Eden” or to be “the anointed cherub who covers” or to be “on the holy mountain of God.” Therefore, most Bible interpreters believe that Ezekiel 28:11–19 is a dual prophecy, comparing the pride of the king of Tyre to the pride of Lucifer turned Satan

The question remains: God states that His creation of this covering cherub, Lucifer, was "the seal of perfection". How then did Lucifer come to have "iniquity" in him since God, in His sovereignty, created him perfect?

 

[StefanM]

 

[MennoSota]

Apparently that was a blatant attempt in trying to minimize the passage.

Some of the descriptions in Ezekiel 28:11–19 go beyond any mere human king. In no sense could an earthly king claim to be “in Eden” or to be “the anointed cherub who covers” or to be “on the holy mountain of God.” Therefore, most Bible interpreters believe that Ezekiel 28:11–19 is a dual prophecy, comparing the pride of the king of Tyre to the pride of Lucifer turned Satan

The question remains: God states that His creation of this covering cherub, Lucifer, was "the seal of perfection". How then did Lucifer come to have "iniquity" in him since God, in His sovereignty, created him perfect?

It is phenomenal poetry. However, we must first consider the historic reference to Tyre and the amazingly detailed description of Tyre in chapter 27. Once we understand the context of how it fits with Ezekiel and his intended audience we can then consider if there is something beyond this.

But, you jump right in to an interpretation outside of context and invoke Lucifer even though the name is never mentioned in the passage. Even worse you somehow try to make the passage about God's work of redemption and reconciliation. How do you even manage that pretzel?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Lucifer ain't Lucifer. It is the king of Babylon. Probably Beltechazzer...

 

[AndThisGospel]

Lucifer ain't Lucifer. It is the king of Babylon. Probably Beltechazzer...

Oh, so when God said you were "the anointed cherub who covers” and you were ""the seal of perfection" He was addressing an earthly king? Please, look at the [Edited] context[Edited].

 

[AndThisGospel]

Even worse you somehow try to make the passage about God's work of redemption and reconciliation. How do you even manage that pretzel?

Where did I make it "God's work of redemption and reconciliation"? Waiting!

 

[SovereignGrace]

Oh, so when God said you were "the anointed cherub who covers” and you were ""the seal of perfection" He was addressing an earthly king? Please, look at the [Edited] context[Edited].

Look, stop with the insults. I am trying to be civil here.

The passage is dealing with the king of Tyre. Now, I think this is a picture of how Satan fell. But the king of Tyre ain't Satan, neither is Lucifer.

 

[AndThisGospel]

The passage is dealing with the king of Tyre. Now, I think this is a picture of how Satan fell. But the king of Tyre ain't Satan, neither is Lucifer.

As already stated, "most Bible interpreters believe that Ezekiel 28:11–19 is a dual prophecy, comparing the pride of the king of Tyre to the pride of Lucifer turned Satan."

Nonetheless, we are privy to some good information on Lucifer here in this passage. Now, can anyone answer my question?

God states that His creation of this covering cherub, Lucifer, was "the seal of perfection". How then did Lucifer come to have "iniquity" in him since God, in His sovereignty, created him perfect?

 

[StefanM]

You don't even have to go the whole (questionable) "Lucifer" route.

Just ask the question---why did Satan in the first place? (the TRUE "original" sin)

 

[MennoSota]

We cannot know how pride seeped into Satan. God only reveals that pride entered. We know that this does not diminish God's sovereignty. It does not diminish God's holiness. It does not diminish God's personhood.

Andthisgospel, may wish to diminish the character of God by forcing free will to function apart from God's authority. I do not know the reason.

What I know is that Satan has no means of reconciliation with God, nor do any of the fallen angels. What I know is that the angels long to know God's redemption and reconciliation as they observe it functioning with God's gift of grace extended to humanity.

What I know is that God's gift of grace and faith is incredibly amazing and humbling.

 

[AndThisGospel]

You don't even have to go the whole (questionable) "Lucifer" route.

It's only questionable to those Calvinist who oppose anything that hurts their theology. At one time Satan was "perfect" and "sinless". He wasn't named Satan then because that name means "the adversary".

Is 14:12 also directly speaks of Lucifer: “How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!" NKJV

Just ask the question---why did Satan in the first place? (the TRUE "original" sin)

Why did Lucifer sin and become the adversary?

What is sin? The classic answer is "sin is the transgression of the law" (the moral law). But what is "sin" singular? Sin singular leads to sins plural.

What is sin singular? But before touching on that question what was Satan's sin? He went from dependency upon God to be dependency upon himself. He thought that he was big enough to go it alone. This separation from God caused Lucifer to become bent-to-self. This is the root meaning of iniquity: “crooked” or “bent.”

Lucifer was created by God with only agape love. Therefore he was "the seal of perfection"; he was blameless. But self-dependency caused his agape to become "bent" to himself. In other words it became a u-turn agape or self-love. Therefore the love of self is the root of all our sinning. Hence sin singular is the love of self.

The bigger question is how could a perfect being sin? The answer has to be because God made him with a free-will.

 

[Yeshua1]

Ez 28:14 “You (Lucifer) were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. 15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you."

God states that His creation of this covering cherub, Lucifer, was "the seal of perfection". How then did Lucifer come to have "iniquity" in him since God, in His sovereignty, created him perfect?

Same way tha Adam also becom a sinner, by choosing to sin and rebel against God!

 

[StefanM]

It's only questionable to those Calvinist who oppose anything that hurts their theology. At one time Satan was "perfect" and "sinless". He wasn't named Satan then because that name means "the adversary".

Is 14:12 also directly speaks of Lucifer: “How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!" NKJV



Why did Lucifer sin and become the adversary?

What is sin? The classic answer is "sin is the transgression of the law" (the moral law). But what is "sin" singular? Sin singular leads to sins plural.

What is sin singular? But before touching on that question what was Satan's sin? He went from dependency upon God to be dependency upon himself. He thought that he was big enough to go it alone. This separation from God caused Lucifer to become bent-to-self. This is the root meaning of iniquity: “crooked” or “bent.”

Lucifer was created by God with only agape love. Therefore he was "the seal of perfection"; he was blameless. But self-dependency caused his agape to become "bent" to himself. In other words it became a u-turn agape or self-love. Therefore the love of self is the root of all our sinning. Hence sin singular is the love of self.

The bigger question is how could a perfect being sin? The answer has to because God made him with a free-will.

People question the Satan-Lucifer association all the time. Not all of them are Calvinists. I am very much not a Calvinist, and I personally find the association questionable.

 

[AndThisGospel]

We cannot know how pride seeped into Satan.

How? Yes, it is called "the mystery of iniquity". Why would a sinless being even think opposite of God? The simple answer is free-will, but even then it doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

[Yeshua1]

How? Yes, it is called "the mystery of iniquity". Why would a sinless being even think opposite of God? The simple answer is free-will, but even then it doesn't make a lot of sense.

ONLY Satan and Adam ev r had real free will to choose, and even then, both of them were under the decrees and ordaining of God!

 

[AndThisGospel]

Same way tha Adam also becom a sinner, by choosing to sin and rebel against God!

Let's keep to Lucifer for now....I don't believe Lucifer one day said, "I think I'll rebel against God." Separation from God brings sin (singular). Lucifer began to doubt and question God's Sovereignty, which is basically "without Me you can do nothing". He questioned God's agape love. That produced the slippery slope. We know the rest of the story.

 

[AndThisGospel]

ONLY Satan and Adam evr had real free will o choose, and evn thn, both of tm were underthe decrees an ordaining of God!

Please make this a bit more legible.

 

[MennoSota]

We cannot know the mind of God. If God is our King then we trust God's character and attributes. It would be an arrogant thing for the creation to question the Creator and ask "Why did you make me this way?"

But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
~ Romans 9:20