1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured "Free Will" - What is it, and What is it Not?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by thatbrian, Dec 19, 2017.

  1. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    2,015
    Likes Received:
    264
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Please post a brief definition of what free will is.
     
    #1 thatbrian, Dec 19, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2017
  2. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    17,620
    Likes Received:
    2,728
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The will of the lost man is in bondage to the law of sin and death.

    Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    14,654
    Likes Received:
    1,074
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The idea of free will has it origins in greek carnal philosophy,and perhaps the musings of Satan;
    isa14;
    12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

    13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

    14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  4. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    22,192
    Likes Received:
    288
    Faith:
    Baptist
    An ambitious and lofty goal to be sure.
     
  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    14,654
    Likes Received:
    1,074
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The complete opposite of what Jesus did;
    38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    22,192
    Likes Received:
    288
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes, He had his marching orders and He always pointed to The Father as Good.
     
  7. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    2,015
    Likes Received:
    264
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Great point! I had never thought of that one.
     
  8. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    41,824
    Likes Received:
    1,261
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Free will or better communicated human autonomy is not humanity acting independent of God altogether. All our abilities before and after salvation are given to us from God. Paul makes this clear in (I Corinthians 4:7)The disagreement is dependent on whether or not our ability to make decisions both good and bad has been so badly destroyed that the only ability we have left is to oppose God on our own. This is often characterized as the nature of man although scripture does not bear this out. It is simply read into scripture.

    Reformed folks suggest that God reaches down and changes our nature and then we respond to the gospel with that changed nature in the only way we can given our now new and spiritual nature. The problem is the changing of this nature is imposed on us (if that were actually true) without any choice available to us as to whether we would want our nature changed. Since we do not get to choose our nature it can rightly be said that we do not get a choice.

    There is no conflict with God's divine Sovereignty and man's autonomy as Traditionalists see it. There is scripture after scripture that says God is sovereign (Psalm 115:3). There is also scripture that says man is autonomous (Psalm 115:16). The real debate or question comes down to whether man's nature has been so depraved that man has lost all ability to choose to come to God, after hearing the gospel, on his own or autonomously. (Let's remember human autonomy does not mean man's ability is completely independent of God since God, at birth gave us all that we have)

    My God is powerful and remains the ultimate sovereign God even in the midst of human autonomy. The reformed view of God is weak and puny because the autonomy of man diminishes His sovereignty. God is reduced to changing the nature of man so that He can have His way according to the reformed. My God is so wise, powerful, and in control even in the midst of the human autonomy He created.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    26,539
    Likes Received:
    448
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The means and ability to do what one can desire to do and accomplish
    God has absolute free will , and we as sinners are restricted to the bondage of our natures, so while we can still do what we desire, there are things no longer able to be desired by us!
     
  10. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2012
    Messages:
    2,161
    Likes Received:
    20
    "Free Will"... at least in the sense of a 'Libertarian' free will, is that capacity of a sentient being to choose between two or more options or to elect to not make a choice at all, and that that choice is not determined by either internal or external logical necessity.
     
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    26,539
    Likes Received:
    448
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Which means that only God has real and absolute free will, as there is no external force that can be applied greater than Him to force His will to be made!
     
  12. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2012
    Messages:
    2,161
    Likes Received:
    20
    No, it means nothing of the sort.
    "real" free will is a phrase with no meaning:
    "absolute" free will is a phrase with no meaning...

    and, inasmuch as you mentioned an "external force" that can be applied, I already cut that off at the pass with my definition wherein I stated it was not determined by:
    I get that Calvinists understand the prepositions out, outside, outward, etc......

    Apparently, no one taught them in the third grade that prepositions such as in, within, and inside also exist.
    Which is why I've headed you off at the pass with my ( I dare-say ingeniously constructed definition):
    "Constrained by neither 'internal' nor 'external' logical necessity"

    Try again, and thanks for playing. ;)
     
  13. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2001
    Messages:
    11,068
    Likes Received:
    547
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Well, that's nice. Please explain, as best as you can, the meaning of "internal or external logical necessity." Do you lean toward a Scholastic understanding of necessity and contingency? Certainly not one of the Reformed philosophers.
     
  14. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2002
    Messages:
    8,209
    Likes Received:
    169
    Faith:
    Baptist
    "Free Will" - What is it, and What is it Not?

    It's a service very few lawyers offer.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  15. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    2,015
    Likes Received:
    264
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Do you know anyone in such a state?
     
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    26,539
    Likes Received:
    448
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Does God Himself have free will then? Do we?
     
  17. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2012
    Messages:
    2,161
    Likes Received:
    20
    Should have simply said "internal or external necessity."
    Yes, I suppose I lean towards a "Scholastic" understanding (if I'm understanding what you mean by that). I don't agree with the Reformed Philosophers at all on the issue of course.
     
    #17 HeirofSalvation, Dec 24, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2017
  18. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2012
    Messages:
    2,161
    Likes Received:
    20
    I believe all persons generally are possessed of that ability.
    You, for one.
    Myself etc.
     
  19. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    2,015
    Likes Received:
    264
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    And just why do you believe that men have the ability to choose to the contrary?
     
  20. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    6,649
    Likes Received:
    430
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Freedom of the will is like all freedoms. It is constrained under the authority of the law.

    The Scriptures state, “The natural man....”. Therefore, freedom of the will is conformed to nature of the natural man. It cannot freely choose outside of the nature, and conforms all choices made to that nature.

    Because believers have both the will of the flesh and the will of the spirit, believers are able to exercise true freedom of will choice.


    Freedom of the will is not freedom from the will. Such constraints of the will are not unshackled in any person.

    Does not the Scriptures state, “The love of Christ constrains...”. (2 Corinthians 5)?
     
Loading...