Frustration over debate about Calvinism

Me4Him - as a Non-Cal I must say that you profess closest soterological view to true semi-Pelagainism than I have ever heard, if not somewhat partial toward Pelagianism. That is not a good thing, ever brother.

 

I have absolutely less than zero intention of getting involved in any of the ongoing arguments this thread has generated, so merely let me offer -

A big "Welcome to the Baptist Board!" :wavey:

Ed

 

As I said...If you want to use the word FORCE...which I feel is bad wording....the force comes in the REGENERATION. Just as we do not choose to be born in a earthly father, so we do not choose to be born of the Father above. It is HIS choice.

Great...it was not Pauls choice...But Gods choice. You say we all agree.

Please notice the words...

I have chosen: GOD is the one that chose.
Now why did God chose? Because he knew they believed (Non Calvinist)? No it says he say.... THAT THEY MAY BELIEVE.


that ye may know and believe me,


and what else...

Chosen to UNDERSTAND

and understand that I [am] he:

Dead men do not understand and CAN"T believe

If you believe this....THIS IS CALVINISM 101

 

THANKS Allan,

I know that may of use disagree with somethings and that is cool, for this is a debate board. However, I get dismayed when people keep "crossing the line" into error.

Thanks for this post. It shows that both sides can agree on a few things.

ADDED...
I wanted to add so as not to be misunderstood, I feel there are but a small few...(maybe 3) that cross that line into error

 

I bet I can say something to pull you in.

 

God made Paul willing to believe after He made a spiritually dead Paul, persecutor of the Church, spiritually alive, what we call regeneration.

 

So Paul was now alve and able to choose. What if he chose not to believe? would he be alive forever or would God take the regeneration away?

Or did Paul have to choose salvation once he was made alive?

 

I, like some other Calvinists, do not agree with the 'logical assumption' that regeneration precedes. It is declared by many scholarly Calvinists who hold to this view that this is not something that can be proven 'biblically'.

However the view of faith preceding regeneration can be proven biblically or in the very least illstrated in scripture and order.
No one however is disputing that God is the one who regenerates us and that it is His choice to do so. What we choose, is not be regenerated but to believe what God has revealed via His Spirit. Regeneration is salvation because when one is regenerated (born again) one is justified and sanctified (Titus 3:5). Therefore one can not be justified and sanctified and not be born-again, thusly one can not (according to scripture) be justified nor sanctified prior to faith since it is by faith we are justified (Rom 3:28) and sanctified (Acts 26:18) .

Due to being justified and sanctified we are, according to scripture, declared righteous and this is due to the fact of that which brought forth justification and sanctification unto us, which was 'by faith' we are made righteous (Rom 3:22, Rom 4:5)

You bet. God regenerating Paul was His choice, to believe was Pauls :thumbs:

Words indeed are important but that alone creates no validity without context brother in which to understand those words.. This verse is not an island unto itself but is part of a larger discourse - which is specifically about the Nation of Israel, of whom we both know and understand that not all of them were saved. 'My servant' is a constant representation of the Nation of Israel as seen in Isa 41:8 and repeated in 43:1. Also this portion is specifically concerning the prophecies of Him verses other gods (if any - none) to prove who was the true God. Israel is His witness that He is the true God because His promises and prophecies to this nation whom He chose 'for a witness' that He is the True God. Thus through that Nation He revealed to the whole world that He is the one True God and that in doing so they (the Nation of Israel) [come to] know him, and therefore believe in Him that He is the One True and Living God. Remember however that not every person who made up the nation believed but they as a Nation was chosen to be His witnesses. And the rest of the passages go on to declare it's main theme - He is God alone and there are no other gods.

What is most interesting is that the blind and deaf spoken of are His own people (Isa 42:19 and following) Even when He allows them to see - they reject Him, and in opening their ears - they still reject Him. However God goes on into Chapter 43 declaring His prophecies of the Nation coming back to Him will come to pass as proof that He is the one True God amounst many false idols. Now since this is dealing with the Nation of Israel can we state biblically that everyone which made up the Nation believed or better that everyone who made up that Nation were all believers?

Yes, I covered that according to the context it was intended. That they would understand He was the true God amounst many false idols/gods and as His witnesses the declarers of such.

True, that is what Calvinism teaches but I believe scripture teaches on this subject differently that Calvinism.

Spiritually dead men can and do understand those things that 'God' reveals to them as stated by scripture, seen in many places. But we can see this with apparent clarity in two particular passages. In these passages we see those in darkness and who are slaves, and under the power of Satan (which are descriptors of the unregenerate) do understand and can believe via the working God the Holy Spirit. As seen here:

Study it out carefully
In your position one can not respond to the calling unless regenerate and thus if regenerate they are no longer slaves nor are they in darkness. And yet this verse contradicts that position openly. If they 'were slaves' when He called to them who are His freed people then they were not regenerate.

And secondly:

Notice where they are 'when' they turn toward God. It was while in darkness, and thus under the power of Satan - to receive forgiveness.

Anyway brother, you and I both know we can go at this for days, weeks even. But with respect to this thread and person who opened it, I stated (and still do) for him to speak with his pastor and study himself as well. We can set this aside for his benifit because I'm not trying to persuade him one way or another but letting God give the increase as He sees fit in this believers life and walk.

 

I have posted this before but will do so once more but in link form.
Here is one of my posts from another thread

 

Ro 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

"God's Grace" is "greater" that "ALL SIN", "IF" man will accept it.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is .........not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

Great question...can't wait for a cal to take a stab at it

 

The best answer to your somewhat obtuse question is presented in the following quotation from 19th Century Southern Baptist John L. Dagg in his Manual of Theology, pages 277ff, as he speaks of the affect on man of regeneration:

“So great is the change produced, that the subject of it is called a new creature as if proceeding, like Adam, directly from the creating hand of God; and he is said to be renewed, as being restored to the image of God, in which man was originally formed”

2 Corinthians 5:17, KJV
17. Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Dagg further notes:

“The change is moral. The body is unchanged; and the identity of the mind is not destroyed. The individual is conscious of being the same person that he was before; but a new direction is given to the active powers of the mind, and new affections are brought into exercise. The love of God is shed abroad in the heart by the Holy Ghost. No love to God had previously existed there; for the carnal heart is enmity against God. Love is the fulfilling of the law, the principle of all holy obedience; and when love is produced in the heart, the law of God is written there. As a new principle of action, inciting to a new mode of life, it renders the man a new creature. The production of love in the heart by the Holy Spirit, is the regeneration, or the new birth; for he that loveth, is born of God.”

“The mode in which the Holy Spirit effects this change, is beyond our understanding. All God's ways are unsearchable; and we might as well attempt to explain how he created the world, as how he new-creates the soul. With reference to this subject, the Saviour said, The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.[John 3:8, KJV] We know, from the Holy Scriptures, that God employs his truth in the regeneration of the soul. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.[James 1:18, KJV] Love to God necessarily implies knowledge of God, and this knowledge it is the province of truth to impart. But knowledge is not always connected with love. The devils know, but do not love; and wicked men delight not to retain the knowledge of God, because their knowledge of him is not connected with love. The mere presentation of the truth to the mind, is not all that is needed, in producing love to God in the heart.”

 

sorry about the "obtuse" nature of my question, but maybe you can give a clear answer to the questions:
Could Paul have chosen not to believe?

If he could choose not to believe, what happened to his regeneration? Was the new life taken away?

I am thankful for the quote but it doesn't answer the questions. All of us would agree that if anyone is in Christ, they are new creations! I am thankful for that and the blessings that God gives with salvation. But that does not answer my question.

Or maybe I'm just too obtuse.

 

No. He was predestined to believe.

 

Once he was regenerated, he was under grace (irresistable grace for the Calvin fans), and was not in his nature to not choose God. Actually, God chose Paul before the foundation of the world. No, God does not take regeneration away.

 

Hi, new here, hope you don't mind me joining in.

I do not believe anyone is predestined to believe or not believe.

John 5:33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.
34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.

If you read the context, Jesus is speaking to unbelievers here. Why would Jesus say "that ye might be saved" if it was already determined they would never be saved?

35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.
36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

Why do they not have God's word abiding in them? Because they refuse to believe Jesus.

39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Why would Jesus say such a thing? How can they come to Jesus if God has already determined they cannot? Why would Jesus criticize them for this if it is beyond their control?

41 I receive not honour from men.
42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.

It is not that is predetermined these men cannot believe. It is because they do not love God. And Jesus knows their hearts, this is why he can make these statements to these men.

43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

Here is the problem, here is the reason they cannot believe, because they are proud and seek the honour of men, and not God.

45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

Again, why would Jesus criticize them for unbelief if they cannot possibly believe?

47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Yes, those sheep that knew Jesus's voice were also those who believed Moses and the prophets.

 

???

And you keep saying you know Calvinism. :laugh:

two letters.....

I
G

 

That is to bad. Its logical because it is in the Bible.

Not very good scholars if you ask me.

They must have never read John 1...
In him was life, and that life was the light of men.

LIFE comes before LIGHT

How about 1 John 5...?

Also John 6...

In a way you will find the right order if you read these 3 verses....
1 Corinthians 2:12-14

You must have the Spirit, before you can understand....right?

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14

1 John 4 says only thos that are "FROM GOD"...which is talking about being born in his family,....only those from God will listen to the gospel. Those that will not listen and not born again.

Tons more...


Allan, I will not address the rest of your post. You knew the verses I will post as well as I do. I will just point out that Calvinst and Arminain views are not "close" as you have been posting. When we talk it through we always see this.

Now, you would have to agree with me on this, because you debate. If it didn't matter and things were "close" just a matter of mechanics as you claim, you would just go have another cup of coffee and say whatever....not waste your time with debate.

But the fact is.....you do see my view as wrong and your view as right, and therefore you post in order to let others know the RIGHT view as you see it. It does matter.

Which is fine. I do the same. However, I don't think it's only as you say..."mechanics". It's not mechanics. The two views will NEVER match up. Its one or the other. It's black or white.


peace bro

 

When I was a Calvinist this argument always struck me as an odd one for C's to use. God had to confront Paul the way he did to get him to come around, but that is a non-C position. After all, the C position is that God regenerates apart from the potential convert's will.

The confrontation did nothing to facilitate irresistible regeneration. But according to the non-C, it was totally necessary for God to confront Paul.

 

hello winman...and welcome to BB.

Tha's to bad.

Why are we told to "sin not", when God knows we will sin?

ok..

yep.. Also read romans 3

ok..

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these verses are addressing a few things. Verse 39 is toward the "Jews" that found salvation in "Scripture". They knew the number of words in each book. They know the middle verse of each book. They knew all the facts about the Bible, but they didn't know the message. They could quote the scripture by heart, but didn't know what it said. The felt loving the Bible was salvation.

verse 40 just tells that they WILL NEVER come..(Romans 3).....in order to have REAL salvation. Its DT 101

ok

Well....1st this is not talking about election. But the point you are trying to make is addressed in 1 John 5. Also look at John 1. Man can not love God ....unless he is born of God.

ok

yep....and so is all men. so....God elects

ok....

oh boy... Well why does the Law tells is not the lie.....when God knows we will lie at least once????

ok..

humm.... well...the point that our Lord was making is that HE...Christ is all through the OT.