Featured General Revelation

The Cross of christ was foreordained by god before evn the fall of adam, as His means to cure the Sin problem, and to bring greater glory out of their willful sin....

As such, God ALWAYS saved on the basis of the atonememnt of the Cross, so OT believers were those who were saved by elective purposse and will of god, just as NT saints were, its just that they looked forward to what we know much better on now!

Both OT/NT saved same way, by grace alone/Faith alone, as the cross covered both ages!

 

Folks here again is the quote to remind Skandelon of what he said.

Now what part of "discern the heart of man in response to "whatever level of revelation" He has and ...credit righteousness to his account. Thus Skandelon did indeed propose God might credit someone based on responding to a revelation not including the name of Jesus. This is not an orthodox view.

He supports this unorthodox view by mistakenly claiming the OT saints were reconciled to God apart from believing in the name of Jesus. Let me re-reference John 3:13, and Hebrews 11:39-40.

 

A most excellent post!!!!
:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

It tells us that God is infinitely larger and more grand than any of our imaginations, furhermore, it tells us that there is much beyond our scope and ability to understand, unlike many who seek to convince us that they know and understand all about our Creator and Redeemer.

 

I agree with everything you have written in this thread. For me, this issue was settled a long time ago, so I probably don't need to comment any further.

 

God has the power to effectually apply saving Grace towards those not able to receive Jesus by faith, doesn't He?

 

Why would anyone think it beyond His capabilities?

 

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;


18 for revealed is the wrath of God from heaven upon all impiety and unrighteousness of men, holding down the truth in unrighteousness.


8 For the wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and the unrighteousness of those who suppress the truth by their unrighteousness,

All men are truth suppressors.The natural man ...cannot.....understand unless and until God allows him to.

 

Pitchback

I believe in Scripture alone, and therefore I do not acknowledge what scripture explicitly denies. No one is saved apart from believing in the name of Christ. I do not think any of the OT saints knew the name of Jesus when they died, and therefore did not go to heaven. They went to Abraham's bosom. This is consistent with John 3:13. Now how did they get from Abraham's bosom to heaven? Again, Hebrews 11:39-40 says they were not made perfect apart from us, so they had to be placed in Christ. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says folks are placed in Christ, the sanctifying work of the Spirit through faith in the Truth, and that is Jesus.

This is the orthodox view that is consistent with all scripture.

You either believe what scripture says, or you make up your own theology, where God sends dreams to those who die without an opportunity to believe. Your view is simply something made up, an argument from silence, thus is not based on the orthodox doctrine of scripture alone.

 

Just so I understand, what you believe is that OT saints did not go to heaven, but rather Abrahams Bosom, which is distinctively different, they remain there at this "time"?

 

I was always taught that Abraham's bosom was in the center of the earth, and the O.T. saints were moved to heaven after Christ arose.

Speculation by Johnny Mac:

How Christ Won the Right to Give Gifts
Therefore it says, "When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives, and He gave gifts to men." (Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) (4:8-10)
Paul is set to delineate some of the gifts Christ has given, but before mentioning specific gifts bestowed on the whole church, he uses Psalm 68:18 as a comparison passage to show how Christ received the right to bestow those gifts. The obvious differences between both the Hebrew and Greek (Septuagint) Old Testament texts of Psalm 68:18 and Paul's citation of it suggest that he is probably making only a general allusion to the passage for the sake of analogy, rather than specifically identifying it as a direct prediction of Christ.
Psalm 68 is a victory hymn composed by David to celebrate God's conquest of the Jebusite city and the triumphant ascent of God (represented by the Ark of the Covenant) up Mount Zion (cf. 2 Sam. 6-7; 1 Chron. 13). After a king won such a victory he would bring home the spoils and enemy prisoners to parade before his people. An Israelite king would take his retinue through the holy city of Jerusalem and up Mount Zion. Another feature of the victory parade, however, would be the display of the king's own soldiers who had been freed after being held prisoner by the enemy. These were often referred to as recaptured captives—prisoners who had been taken prisoner again, so to speak, by their own king and given freedom.
The phrase when He ascended on high depicts a triumphant Christ returning from battle on earth back into the glory of the heavenly city with the trophies of His great victory.
In His crucifixion and resurrection, Jesus Christ conquered Satan, sin, and death (cf. Col. 2:15), and by that great victory He led captive a host of captives, who once were prisoners of the enemy but now are returned to the God and the people with whom they belong. The picture is vivid in its demonstration that God has yet-unsaved people who belong to Him—though they are naturally in Satan's grasp and would remain there had not Christ by His death and resurrection made provision to lead them into the captivity of His kingdom into which they had been called by sovereign election "before the foundation of the world" (Eph. 1:4). Compare Acts 18:10, where the Lord tells Paul to stay in Corinth and preach because there were people in that city who belonged to Him but were not yet saved from bondage to the king of darkness (see also John 10:16; 11:51-52; Acts 15:14-18).
Upon arriving in heaven, He gave gifts to men. Paul here uses yet another term for gifts (domata) to express the comprehensiveness of this gracious provision. Like a triumphant conqueror distributing the spoils to his subjects, so Christ takes the trophies He has won and distributes them in His kingdom. After His ascension came all the gifts empowered by the Holy Spirit (John 7:39; 14:12; Acts 2:33). When the Savior was exalted on high, He sent the Spirit (Acts 1:8), and with the coming of the Spirit also came His gifts to the church. Before Paul identifies the gifts he has in mind, he first gives a brief parenthetical explanation of the analogy he has just used.
In explaining the application of the Old Testament passage, Paul says, Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also descended into the lower parts of the earth? The He of whom Paul is speaking is the One who will fill all things—Jesus Christ, "who fills all in all" (1:23). Ascended refers to Jesus' ascension from earth to heaven (Acts 1:9-11). He ascended from earth to heaven to forever reign with His Father.
Paul is quick to explain that the expression He ascended cannot mean anything except that He... also descended. If, as seems clear, ascended refers to our Lord's being taken up to heaven, then descended must refer to His coming down from heaven to earth. The captain of our salvation was first abased and then exalted. Divestiture came before investiture, incarnation before glorification (see Phil. 2:4-11). This truth is repeated in proper chronological sequence in verse 10: He who descended is Himself also He who ascended.
The depth of Christ's descent in incarnation is said to be into the lower parts of the earth. This reference is presented to provide a striking contrast in terms of His ascent far above ail the heavens, emphasizing the extreme range of our Lord's condescension and exaltation. To understand the phrase the lower parts of the earth we need only examine its use elsewhere in Scripture. In Psalm 63:9 it has to do with death, being related to falling by the sword (v. 10). In Matthew 12:40 a similar phrase, "the heart of the earth," refers to the belly of a great fish where the prophet Jonah was kept. In Isaiah 44:23 the phrase refers to the created earth containing mountains, forests, and trees. Psalm 139:15 uses it in reference to the womb of a woman where God is forming a child. The sum of these uses indicates that the phrase relates to the created earth as a place of life and death. In the majority of the uses it appears in contrast to the highest heavens, as here and in Psalm 139:8, 15 and Isaiah 44:23.
The intent of the phrase in this letter is not to point to a specific place, but to refer to the depth of the incarnation. It is interesting that each of the uses of the phrase outside Ephesians can also relate to the depth of Christ's incarnation. He was formed in the womb (Psa. 139:15), lived on the earth (Isa. 44:23), referred to His own burial as a parallel to Jonah's being in the fish (Matt. 12:40), and His death is consistent with the use of the phrase in Psalm 63:9.
It should be noted further that our Lord's descent went even beyond the womb, the earth, the grave, and death—to a descent into the very pit of the demons. Peter sheds light on the meaning of He also descended into the lower parts of the earth. In his first letter he says, "For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison" (1 Pet. 3:18-19). Between Jesus' death on Calvary and His resurrection in the garden tomb, He was "put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit." He was physically dead but spiritually alive. During the three days He was in that state He also descended "and made proclamation (from kērussō) to the spirits now in prison." This does not refer to preaching the gospel (from euangelizō) but to making a triumphant announcement—in this case Christ's announcement of His victory over the demons even while they tried to hold Him in death.
The Old Testament refers to the place of the departed dead as Sheol (Deut. 32:22; Job 26:6; Ps. 16:10; etc.). Part of Sheol was a place of torment and evil, occupied by the unrighteous dead and by the demons who had been confined and bound there because of their wicked cohabitation with women during the period before the Flood (see Gen. 6:2-5; 2 Pet. 2:4; Jude 6). When Christ descended to Sheol, He proclaimed His victory, because "He had disarmed the rulers and authorities [and] made a public display of them, having triumphed over them" (Col. 2:15; cf. 1 Pet. 3:19). At that time came the announcement to the demons, both bound and loose (the "angels and authorities and powers"), that they all were subject to Christ (1 Pet. 3:22; Eph. 1:20-21). To ascend to heaven, He also passed through the territory of Satan and his demons in the air (Heb. 4:14 uses dia, through) and no doubt celebrated His triumph over them. Whether or not Paul had this event in mind in his reference here is difficult to establish; nonetheless, it does demonstrate the depth of Christ's descent.
Another part of Sheol, though not clearly distinguished from the other by Old Testament writers, was believed to be a place of happiness and bliss, inhabited by the righteous dead who had believed in God. "Abraham's bosom" (Luke 16:22-23) and "Paradise" (Luke 23:43) apparently were common designations for Sheol at the time of Christ. Early church dogma taught that the righteous dead of the Old Testament could not be taken into the fullness of God's presence until Christ had purchased their redemption on the cross, and that they had waited in this place for His victory on that day. Figuratively speaking, the early church Fathers said that, after announcing His triumph over demons in one part of Sheol, He then opened the doors of another part of Sheol to release those godly captives. Like the victorious kings of old, He recaptured the captives and liberated them, and henceforth they would live in heaven as eternally free sons of God.
It must be suggested that such a view seems strained in the Ephesian context, because the lower parts of the earth is a general phrase and cannot be proven to refer to Sheol.
MacArthur New Testament Commentary, The - MacArthur New Testament Commentary – Ephesians.

 

Here is another verse to consider

Matthew 27:
51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[Or tombs, and after Jesus’ resurrection they] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Maybe the Abraham bosom deserves its own thread

 

Heavens no!! Please read Hebrews 11:39-40. They were not made perfect apart from New Covenant Saints. Therefore they had to wait in Abraham's bosom until Christ died, to be washed by His blood, made perfect, and taken to heaven.

 

Thanks Bronconagurski.

I have presented the scriptural requirement that Abraham's bosom is not Paradise or the third heaven where God resides. John 3:13. Therefore the orthodox view has Jesus taking those in Abraham's bosom to heaven after He died on the cross.

 

Hi Skandelon,

The so-called "inclusive view of salvation" can be goggled and you can read all about it and its RCC origin. The "exclusive view" is the orthodox fundamentalist Baptist view. There is no other name under heaven, so knowledge of Jesus, i.e. the gospel of Christ, the power of God for salvation.

It is true that all mankind was "bought" such that everyone belongs to the New Covenant opportunity, providing justification of life to all men. However to receive the reconciliation requires belief in the one of a kind Son of God.

But what about God sending a dream version of the gospel and enabling babies and the feeble minded to understand and embrace it? Not mentioned in scripture, a fiction created apart from scripture alone doctrine, thus unorthodox.

Trust in what the Bible says, and not in what men propose based on what the Bible does not say.

 

Please don't be patronizing.

 

belief is that before coming of jesus to actually die and provide the Atonement for Sin, the oT believers went to, Hades, holding ground for lost and saved..

Omce jesus died and resurrected, he emptied out that place and took all OT believers back up to heaven with him!

After that, ALL go directly to heaven at death!