Gifts of the Holy Ghost

Neither the cessationists nor the charismatics are right! There put that in your pipe and smoke it!

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

My take is that the I Cor 12 gifts are for today - because despite the cessationist interpretation of ch 13 this is really a bit of eisegesis on their part. However, I don't believe that 'tongues' as practised by many charismatics and pentes are Biblical and I don't believe in the Finneyite-Pentecostal 'Second Blessing'/subsequence pneumatology as this likewise is unknown in Scripture

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

I believe the cessationists are right and I don't have to appeal to 1 Cor 13 for it. The purpose for sign gifts has passed and therefore the need has. Therefore, the gift has.

 

cessationists

Might I ask for a definition to this term without seeming too blonde ?

 

If cessationism is correct, then the Scripture in James 5:14-15 is wrong.

James 5:14-15 "is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him annointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he has commited sins they shall be forgiven him".

The Cessationists teach that God can not and does not heal people today. That is why I oppose them. Not to mention that in a circumstance like the above, I had been in a bad car accident and had a huge lump on my head. I asked for prayer and I testify to you truthfully, as I was prayed for, that lump dissapeared. I had to go and cancel the insurance that was paying for my time off work and actually return to work.

That said, no doubt there are plenty of people that have had prayer and have not been healed. Yet that is up to the Lord, who He heals and who He takes to be with Him. Yet to state in Cessationist church that He does not heal anyone today is a misrepresentation of Scripture.

 

I don't know of any cessationaist who teaches this. Any healing whatsoever comes from God, whether through primary causation (miraculous) or secondary causation (doctors, medicine, etc.). What the cessationists deny is that the miraculous healing comes by laying on of hands or some such thing. We believe that the Bible teaches that has stopped. There are several possibilities for James 5. I believe James 5 and the anointing of oil is symbolic, because it is the prayer of faith that saves, not the anointing with oil.

Either way, we do not believe that God cannot or does not heal today. He certainly does. YOu have to remember as well that many unbelievers with no faith are also healed, showing that it is not some kind of miraculous laying on of hands that is doing the healing. Whatever the cause of healing, God is behind it.

Lea, A cessationist believes that the sign gifts (tongues, miracles, healing, revelation) have ceased with the closing of the canon. A non-cessationist believes that they have not ceased. Of the latter, there are different varieties.

 

Yes, sign gifts were given to verify the authenticity of the messsage in a time when Scripture was not complete (Heb 2:2; 1 Cor 14; Acts 8; !cts 10). Today, we have the completed Scripture; we no longer need signs to verify what the truth is. We need only comparison with Scripture.

 

what about non-sign gifts?

 

Non-sign gifts are never under discussion in the cessation/non-cessation debate. Everyone that I know of agree that non-sign gifts (or service gifts they are sometimes called) are continuing. They served a different purpose ... that of building up the body.

 

I do not believe that ANY gift (instantaneous spiritual bestowment of an ability) is continuing. The lack of necessity is sufficient reason for the cessation of sign gifts and would also apply to all "gifts". As I am not a scholar nor an authority and I can be easily dismissed, I didn't even know I was called a cessationist until I came to this board but I was already firmly convinced from scripture and observation that no one in my experience had a gift of any sort. Lots of talented people, lots of people who developed their potential, and lots of people who were very diverse in their unique abilities but their actual abilities were all learned and none bestowed.

 

The service gifts are typically not "instantaneously bestowed." They are innate abilities used for the building up of the body. For instance, someone with the gift of teaching is a good teacher, whether or not they use it in the church. Someone with the gift of mercy is a very kind person, whether or not it is used in the church. I would not argue that a service gift is never bestowed on a person after salvation, but it is not miraculous in nature and therefore, we would never know.

Many, if not all, gifts have to be developed as Paul told Timothy.

The point of cessationism is that service gifts continue to function in the church, whether innnate or bestowed. Sign gifts do not.

 

Er...but none of the Scriptures you have quoted says this. eg Heb 2:2 is about the Law, violations of which were penalised. Where in Scripture does it say that the sign gifts will end on the completion of the Canon?

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

Sorry, Matt, little miscitation there. It is Hebrews 2:4

Hebrews 2:4 4 God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will.

The "testifying with" refers to the messasge of the so great salvation, unknown in the OT, first spoken in Christ, confirmed to the first century believers by those who heard him, and communicated to us with authority in teh NT. The first century believers knew what the "testifiers" were saying was true because of the sign gifts. Prior to the completed canon, the sign gifts were the testimony of God about the authority of the message. We know that the testimony is true because of Scripture.

Acts 8 and 10-11 both show signs gifts in reference to the gospel message being not just for the Jews but for all. Acts 8 does not specifically mention the sign gifts but Acts 10-11 do in teh same context and give us insight in "receiving the Holy Spirit" in Acts 8. That ties right in with 1 Cor 14 where tongues are a sign, not for those who believe, but for those who do not believe. What did not they not believe? It was not the gospel. The people who do not believe the gospel are confused by tongues; they say you are mad. The ones who "believe not" are those who do not believe that the gospel is for all the nations (cf. v. 21). The spreading of the gospel to the nations was part of the judgment on Jews. Some Jews did not believe that the gospel was for others. So in Acts 8, the apostles go to confirm that Samaritan believers were welcome. In Acts 10, you see the sign gifts as explicitly confirming that Gentiles were welcome in the body.

Since we have the completed canon, it is clear that all are welcome. That the gospel is not just for the Jews, but that all are one in Christ's body. The canon tells us that; the sign gifts told them that.

 

OK, I see your logic and the coherence of your argument, and I see the use of the past tense in Hebrews 2:4, but I still maintain that you are at best inferring or implying your doctrine from Scripture; I think that something as important as this controversy would have been explicitly set out in Scripture. And it ain't. Peter in Acts 2 addresing the Jerusalem crowd quotes from Joel and makes no reference to a ceasing of what is happening there; in fact just the opposite - "in the Last Days" (in which we are still living) etc.

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

I am not seeking to debate, merely looking for clarification. I think I might actually learn something today. I thought (apparently incorrectly) that all gifts were bestowed at (or after) salvation and that the innate and potential abilities in almost all humans, saved or lost, was not the subject of debate. Here's what I thought:

* Gifts with a Capital G = Miraculosuly, instantaneously bestowed.
* gifts with a small g = innate potential in all humans saved or lost.

4 Possibilities

1. Sign Gifts and Service Gifts are current.
2. Sign Gifts ceased, Service Gifts continue.
3. Sign Gifts and Service Gifts ceased
4. service gifts always possessed and then blessed by God when developed and used by saved people.

I put myself squarely in 3 and 4.

Is #2 a cessationist?

If so, would that make me a hypercessationist?

Are you saying that the POTENTIAL can/will/might be miraculously bestowed but not the fullblown ability?

 

I would think that it would be settled explicitly in Scripture as well, but it does not seem to be. Guess God has his reasons!

It seems that in Acts 2, Peter is explaining what is happening at Pentecost as partly the fulfillment of the Joel prophecy:

The events of v. 19 onward are for later. I also think maybe the Joel prophecy could be referring to the sign gifts given to the believers in the early church. But it is true the Holy Spirit is given to all believers, which Joe's prophecy is also saying -- it's not just about visions, dreams, and prophecy.

Interesting discussion. We are students of the Bible for life!

I am definitely an amateur in this area.

 

I would put myself in 2 and 4, and yes, 2 is a cessationist. Typically, the cessation/non-cessation argument only deals with sign gifts. I have never heard anyone say that the service gifts ceased. But there may well be some who have ...