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Featured "given" is inclusive of "draw" in John 6

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by The Biblicist, Jan 22, 2014.

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  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Jesus directly contradicts your interpretation! He uses the present tense "BEING EVIL" when they are giving good "Things." Jesus denies they are "BEING GOOD" when they give good "things" as your interpertation demands but Christ repudiates they become good when giving good "things" but are still "BEING EVIL."
     
    #281 The Biblicist, Feb 3, 2014
  2. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Here you go folks, a classic Calvinist interpretation. I told you Biblicist would do his best to attempt to interpret this scripture to say the exact opposite of what it plainly says.

    Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
     
    #282 Winman, Feb 4, 2014
  3. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    No Jesus is clearly showing people that God the Father can be trusted MORE than their earthly fathers who would only treat them morally good if they were hungry and asked for bread, or a fish, or an egg. Their earthly father would not give them a stone, or a serpent, or a scorpian, all of which would be evil. No, our earthly father, though evil, is loving enough to give us what we truly need out of true concern for our welfare. And Jesus is telling us that we can trust our heavenly Father even more to take care of us and do good things for us that we truly need.

    The whole goal of Calvinism is to teach folks that scripture does not mean what it plainly says. This is just another example.
     
    #283 Winman, Feb 4, 2014
  4. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Do you actual think that MERELY SAYING you told folks that your interpretation would be challenged proves your interpretation to be right???????????? If it is right then respond to the problems presented and show that my interpretation is wrong rather than merely asserting it is wrong. I didn't merely assert your interpretation was wrong but I PROVED IT IS WRONG with EVIDENCE!

    THE EVIDENCE:

    1. Your intepretation directly contradicts Christ's words! Christ says when giving good things they are still "BEING EVIL" while you claim when giving good "things" that demands they are "BEING GOOD." Your interpretation directly contradicts Christ's very words.

    2. You admit that "things" cannot be "morally good or evil" and Christ says knowing how to give such "good" things does not make them morally good but they are "BEING EVIL" when giving good "things." Hence, the morally goodness of such must be from the perspective of those receving such things as they regard them as morally "good."

    HIS REACTION:

    Your defense is rediculous, your interpretation is contradictive and you have no other response to the evidence that your interpetation is wrong but to keep blurting out "I told you" that someone would challenge your intereptation??????????????? How about if I made that my evidence that my interpretations were right??????? How about if I just gave any old interpretation regardless if it were right or wrong and then said, I predict Winman will challenge my interpretation and then when you did say, "I told you Winman would" - How stupid of a response can there be?????

    Your interpretation is wrong because it directly contradicts what the verse explicitly and clearly states. Christ says they are still "BEING EVIL" when giving such good "things" but your interpretation says the very opposite. Christ never said they "do" good things but that is what you tried to force the text to say, and your only response is "I told you that Biblicist would" challenge your interpretation???????????????

    Maybe that should be my defense from now on. Give any interpretation I want and then forewarn the readers, "Watch, Winman will find some way to challenge and overturn my true interpetation" and then when you do yell foul interpretation, maybe I should just follow your lead and say, "See, I told you what Winman would do, didn't I" - Dah!!!!!! Are we back in kindergarten?????
     
    #284 The Biblicist, Feb 4, 2014
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  5. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Both Jarvis and Winman have very superficial views of sin and that is why they argue the way the do and misrepresent God's Word they way they do. They can't grasp that obedience is not merely VISIBLE CONFIRMATION to God's law but is determined "good" by God only when there is HEART CONFORMATION behind the choice of thoughts, words and actions. Hence, the heart motive is essential from God's perspective whether the person and his words and actions are regarded as "good" in God's sight.

    Instead both Jarvis and Winman interpet "sin" and "good" exactly the same way as the Pharisees and Scribes interpreted it by OUTWARD CONFORMATION to the Law. However, God "LOOKS ON THE HEART" not on the OUTWARD CONFORMATION to His revealed will. What is "good" before men is not necessarily "good" before God.

    Neither understand that to KEEP ONE POINT of the Law demands that EVERY POINT must be kept or else YOU ARE NOT KEEPING THE LAW at all but violating it. Hence, sinless perfection is required to KEEP ONE POINT in order for God to say that either YOU are "good" or what you do is "good."

    Neither Jarvis or Winman understand that there is ONE UNDERLYING PRINCIPLE that unites the Law so that when one point is violated every point is violated and when one point is kept every point is kept and that ONE UNDERLYING PRINCIPLE is the HEART MOTIVE of "whasoever you do.....do all for the glory of God" and when that HEART MOTIVE is absent behind your choice of thoughts, words and actions then you have "come short of the glory of God" in all those thoughts, words and actions and thus no matter how the EXTERNAL LIFE may seem to CONFORM to God's Law, God views it as "evil."

    Neither Jarvis or Winman understand that no fallen man has such a heart that operates by this RIGHT MOTIVE but the heart of the fallen man is "desperately wicked" because it operates by "the law of sin" (Rom. 7:18) and that before "good works" can be performed in God's sight they must first be "created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works" or else there "IS none good, no, not one" and there "IS none that DOETH good, no, not one" and "there is none good BUT ONE and that is God." The simple truth is that an "evil" tree cannot bring forth "good" fruit but that is the summation of their whole soteriology that "evil" trees can bring forth "good" fruit. They believe the tree can make ITSELF "good" when the Scriptures deny that any man can make his heart good. They believe it is possible for man to actually keep such commandments as "be ye therefore perfect" or "do this and live" in regard to law keeping rather than such commandments used by God to define their duty and drive them to see their total inability of self, thus demonstrating that self-help salvation is impossible with men.
     
    #285 The Biblicist, Feb 4, 2014
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  6. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    In John 6:37-44 "all...given" equals all that "shall come" and "draw him" equals "him...raised" or "all...taught of God" which equals "draw him."

    Persons who have never been drawn by the Father in the sense Christ defines in John 6:44-45 as "some" in John 6:64-65 can EXTERNALLY hear the gospel, MENTALLY learn and be persuaded to receive the gospel, VERBALLY profess the gospel, PUBLICLY profess the gospel in baptism and yet NEVER have been drawn by the Father (Jn. 6:65).

    Men can bring the gospel UNTO you but for anyone to be truely saved the Father must take that gospel brought UNTO them and REVEAL it INSIDE their heart (2 Cor. 4:6) so that it does not come merely "in word only but IN POWER and IN THE SPIRIT and IN MUCH ASSURANCE" (1 Thes. 1:5).

    Eternal life is by EXPERIENTIAL REVELATION of Christ by God IN THE HEART:

    "As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." - Jn. 17:2-3

    "Blessed art thou Simon bar Jona, for flesh and blood HATH NOT REVEALED THIS unto thee but My Father in Heaven." - Mt. 16:17

    "When it please God, who separated me from my mothers womb TO REVEAL His son IN ME..." - Gal. 1:15-16a

    "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." - 2 Cor. 4:6

    So yes, actual real salvation IS this supernatural transforming revelation of Christ IN THE HEART by the Father - this is the Father giving men to Christ. None are saved who do not experience this internal transforming revelation of the gospel by the Father IN THEM. This is drawing men to Christ. This is how men hear and learn of the Father and are "taught of God" so that they no more say, "Know God" as "ALL" from the "least to the greatest" of God's New Covenant children "KNOW God" when God gives them a "new heart" and a "new Spirit" and "causes them to walk" in His word.

    True actual salvation includes the gospel being brought by men UNTO the sinner. It includes hearing it with the PHYSICAL ear. It includes understanding and being persuaded of its truth with the MIND. It includes VERBAL profession with the mouth, but if it stops short of a direct and transforming revelation IN the heart by God, then it produces nothing but false professors and a powerless profession of salvation. It is the internal revelation of God that actually saves a sinner. Paul said it this way to the Galatians:

    Ga 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
     
    #286 The Biblicist, Feb 4, 2014
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  7. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Correct, all that the Father gives Jesus shall come to him.

    False, this scripture does not say those drawn shall be raised up or taught of God, it simply says no man can come unless the Father draws him.

    You need to learn to read with comprehension.
     
    #287 Winman, Feb 4, 2014
  8. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Note that Biblicist does not show one bit of scripture to support his philosophy.

    Jesus himself said evil men can give good gifts to their children (Mat 7:11), Jesus said sinners love and do good to one another.

    Luk 6:33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

    Now, Biblicist seems to believe that Jesus said people were doing "evil" here. That is not what Jesus said. Jesus said if ye do GOOD to those who do GOOD to you, what thank have you? Jesus is not saying anyone did evil here, he is really and truly saying they did "good".

    The point Jesus is making is that it is no big deal to do good to those who do good to you. That is easy. But Jesus is not saying they were doing evil, they were doing good. Only it is greater to do good to those who treat you poorly.

    Jesus is not teaching that men are unable to do good, in fact he is teaching men are ABLE to do good, and Jesus is telling those who will listen to him to do good to all people, even those who do not treat you well.

    Yes, there is superficial good that appears good outwardly, but inwardly it is not, but there is also genuine good done out of pure motives, such as a father giving his hungry child bread, or fish, or an egg as Jesus explained in Mat 7:11 and Luk 11:13. These were truly good acts performed out of a pure motive and concern for one's children.

    But in Biblicist's mind, no unsaved person can do any good thing. He does not have one word of scripture to support this, he has simply been indoctrinated by those who teach this fallacy.

    Both myself and Inspector Jarvis understand clearly that you if you keep the law you must keep it perfectly, and that if you offend in one point you break all the law. This is a straw man on Biblicist's part.

    No one is talking about meriting eternal life by keeping the law perfectly. We are simply saying man is capable of doing good acts. When you tell the truth, that is good. Otherwise you make God's laws nonsensical. This seems to go right over Biblicist's head.

    If telling the truth is no better than lying, what is the object and purpose of the commandments? You are damned if you do, and damned if you don't.

    Biblicist confuses being a sinner with individual acts. All men are sinners, but all men can perform individual acts that are good by God's definition.

    The reason the Pharisees were evil was because they outwardly pretended to be holy and obedient, but secretly did evil acts.

    Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

    See, Biblicist would say that the Pharisees paying tithes was evil, as he believes EVERYTHING unsaved men do is evil. But that is not what Jesus is saying. Paying tithes was GOOD and they SHOULD have done this as Jesus clearly said. What was evil is that they omitted weightier matters of the law. Biblicist does not read with comprehension.

    This teaching that EVERYTHING a sinner does is evil is pure falsehood and refuted by the scripture I just showed, unless you believe Jesus is saying a person SHOULD do evil.
     
    #288 Winman, Feb 4, 2014
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  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    You do agree with jesus that before salvation, we ALl have the nature like our father, satan, right?

    that in and by ourselves, we keep on rejecting him and His truths?

    that NONE seek after him, that we ALL love to keep astray?

    They receive the Holy Spirit when they are regenerated, and that is worl of God, for can sinners grant themselves new herats in order to then believe on jesus?

    So sinners create this new heart/work up faith, and then get saved, getting new hearts all over again?

    Hebrews 6 shows us how man can be religious, do good works, and profess salvation, without NEVER having it really!
     
    #289 Yeshua1, Feb 4, 2014
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    calvinists do NOT say sinners cannot do good works, nor be religious, its just that sinful men cANNOT AND DO NOT COME TO jESUS TO GET SAVED, AS THEIR NATURES DESIRE A WORK SALVATION, SO MAKE UP FAKE gODS AND fALSE GOPSELS!
     
    #290 Yeshua1, Feb 4, 2014
  11. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Calvinists say all sorts of things, but Biblicist clearly teaches that everything an unsaved person does is evil.

    Emphasis mine, but as you see, Biblicist believes everything unsaved man does is evil.

    And Luke 11:13 refutes your view, because Jesus himself showed "evil" men can ask the Father for the Holy Spirit and be regenerated.

    Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

    Do evil men have to be regenerated to receive the Holy Spirit? This verse does not say so, it simply says a man must "ask". This is also shown in John 4;

    Jhn 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

    Did Jesus say the woman at the well had to be regenerated to believe? No, he simply implied she must KNOW who Jesus is, and she could simply ASK him for living water, which is the Holy Spirit.

    Jesus didn't teach inability, he taught ability. It is Calvinism that tries to teach men they cannot believe or do any good thing such as receive Jesus as their Saviour.
     
    #291 Winman, Feb 4, 2014
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    isaiah said that ALL our works as to getting salvation from God, literally amount to DUNG in sight of God!

    Sinners when regenrated received the Holy Spirit RIGHT THEN!
     
    #292 Yeshua1, Feb 4, 2014
  13. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    You are making the same error as Biblicist, we are not talking about earning or meriting eternal life by a perfectly sinless life. We are simply saying that sinners have the ability to perform "good" individual acts. The scripture I showed about the Pharisees proves this;

    Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

    There were all sorts of things the Pharisees were doing that were wrong, but paying tithes was not one of them. Jesus said they OUGHT to have paid these tithes.

    According to Biblicist, everything these Pharisees did was sin, and so Jesus would have been saying these Pharisees OUGHT to sin in Mat 23:23. Absurd.

    This shows how ridiculous this false teaching of Biblicist's and many other Calvinists is.

    Jesus said the Pharisees OUGHT to have paid tithes as they were doing, so they were doing GOOD in God's sight.
     
    #293 Winman, Feb 4, 2014
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  14. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    The TREATMENT is not what is qualified by "good", WInman- OBVIOUSLY.

    "Good" qualifies gifts.

    The gifts (food in context) is not morally good.

    It is helpful and useful good.

    This is plain enough for a 1st grader to see.
     
    #294 Luke2427, Feb 4, 2014
  15. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Can a "bad" tree bring forth "good" fruit? You say it can and Jesus says it can't.

    Luke 11:13 uses the present tense "being evil" proving that giving good "things" does not change them from "being evil" to "being good" as you claim.

    The clearly teaches that "all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags" in God's sight. You are denying that we are sinners by nature but only sinners by choice and actions.

    You can't answer these problems. All you can do is act like a parrot and simply repeat the same reasonings that have been proven false over and over again.
     
    #295 The Biblicist, Feb 4, 2014
  16. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Classic overused Calvinist proof text. Jesus showed that a man can determine whether he is a good tree that produces good fruit, or a corrupt tree that produces corrupt fruit.

    Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

    The words "either make" and "or else make" show that man has both option and ability to determine whether he is a good tree or corrupt tree.

    Of course, Cavinists like Biblicist will intentionally ignore scripture like this because it completely refutes Calvinism. :rolleyes:

    They are evil because they have sinned and come short of the glory of God who alone is good, nevertheless they are able to do good things as Jesus himself clearly said.

    And you do not even understand this scripture. It is showing that we have righteousness, we do right things, but they are marred and soiled by our sin.

    The scriptures do not teach that man is unable to do righteous works as you FALSELY teach.

    Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

    The scriptures say when a man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, all his righteousness THAT HE HATH DONE shall not be mentioned, but he shall die in his sins.

    So, the scriptures do NOT teach that men cannot do good and righteous works, only that the moment a man sins he comes under condemnation for his sin and shall die in his sin unless he trusts Christ and has his sin washed away.

    Nevertheless, the scriptures clearly teach men can do righteous and good works. This is where Biblicist is ignorant of scripture and sound doctrine.

    I not only can answer, I just did. And I did not give my personal philosophy as you do, I showed scripture that supports my view.

    You cannot show one verse of scripture that says man is unable to do good. If so, I challenge you here and now to show it.

    Let's see what you got.
     
    #296 Winman, Feb 5, 2014
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  17. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    An article from a blog on wordpress.com. Part one of two:


     
    #297 convicted1, Feb 5, 2014
  18. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    Here's part two:

     
    #298 convicted1, Feb 5, 2014
  19. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    No it does not! In nature does a tree have the ability to make itself good or bad? Does the text say that man is able? No it does not. The analogy is the same as in Matthew 7:15-20 showing the impossibility of figs growing on a thorn bush or grapes on a thistle bush - impossible. However, it is clear you have no problems just perverting and distorting scriptures over and over again.




    Tell me Winman is this a COMMAND of God or only a suggestion:

    1 Cor. 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

    Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

    You believe that people are sinners by actions only but the Bible teaches that fallen mankind are sinners by MOTIVE when the "come short" of these commands of God.

    Winman, is it sin to come short of "the glory of God" as your motive in "whatsoever ye do in word or deed" or "whatsoever ye do" if it is not for "the glory of God"???????? Is that sin?





    Ezekiel 18 is so abused by Arminians. He is speaking to Israel and commanding them not to condemn in their civil justice system those who have not violated the Law - which is His Law He gave them.


    Ezek. 18:3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
     
    #299 The Biblicist, Feb 5, 2014
  20. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Ec 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

    "There is NONE that doeth good, no, NOT ONE" - Rom. 3:13

    Note that the contextual object of Paul is merely to demonstrate all men are sinners (v. 9) not whether all men can be justified by good works.

    "EVERY man at his best state is ALTOGETHER VANITY" - Psa. 39:5

    Isa 64:6 ¶ But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

    Man can do good in the sight of men but not in the sight of God. Winman what is God's standard to determine "good"? Can a man do "good" from the wrong motive? What is the right motive for "whatever ye do" Winman? Does God merely weigh the external action or does the heart motive must be right as well? Your view has been that "good" in God's sight is mere EXTERNAL CONFORMITY to God's Law just like the Pharisees.
     
    #300 The Biblicist, Feb 5, 2014
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