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Featured Glorification is what’s limited, not atonement.

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Barry Johnson, Jul 27, 2020.

  1. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Active Member

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    (Rom. 3:23; 8:17-30)
    Romans 3:23 (KJV)
    23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
    Romans 8:17 (KJV)
    17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with
    Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also
    glorified together.
    Only those born again (children) are glorified. The Atonement does not glorify .
     
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  2. Sai

    Sai Active Member

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    And the Arminians too, they glorify themselves.
     
  3. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    That's why we needed Christ's blood to atone for us.

    But who are the cleansed, and when were they cleansed by that blood?
    Amen.

    Romans 8:28-30, developed from Romans 8:16-19.
     
  4. Sai

    Sai Active Member

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    What is limited is positional authority in the millennial kingdom. There will be some who endure the thousand year reign of Messiah in a state of remorse that they did not live for him while they lived in the land of the living.
     
  5. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Active Member

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    We have to recieve the Atonement. Jesus has died for the entire cosmos but no one will be Glorified ( Adoption, the redemption of the body) unless they recieve the Atonement.
    10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
    11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
     
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  6. Sai

    Sai Active Member

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    The cross rendered all men savable. The cross was not the only saving instrumentality. However, God did not choose to save all men. If God chose you save all men all would benefit from the cross but they do not because faith is required. A relief that comes from predestination is that we need only to define the gospel of grace to the world because only the elect are going to respond. No need for theological arguments or heeding fables etc, just preach the cross and let the chips fall where they may.
     
  7. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Active Member

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  8. Sai

    Sai Active Member

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    Jn 3:16
     
  9. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Active Member

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    Amazing verse ..
     
  10. Sai

    Sai Active Member

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    I like 3:14 better. Did the serpent in the wilderness renewer all Israel savable?
     
  11. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Active Member

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    They simply had to look and live . Today we simply believe and we are saved .
     
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  12. Sai

    Sai Active Member

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    Idk what a renewer is. But my question is did the serpent on the staff render all men savable? The cross made all men savable.
     
  13. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Active Member

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    if by that you mean ,Jesus died for the sins of the whole world then yes .
     
  14. Sai

    Sai Active Member

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    Yes
     
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  15. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Believers have already received the atonement:

    " But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
    9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
    10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
    11 And not only [so], but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement."
    ( Romans 5:8-11 ).

    It was received when they were still the enemies of God in unbelief, Barry.
    They didn't do anything to receive it.
     
  16. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Active Member

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    Yes while we were yet sinners christ died for us . He's speaking to believers so saying 'us ' and 'whilst sinnners ' applies logically ( but its not just those hes died for obviously) And His death did not save them . So the information here is that Jesus died for sinners .

    Yes God reconciled them ( including the whole world ) in the sense their sins have been dealt with. But again this alone cannot save ..
    ' We have NOW recieved the atonement..that cannot be when He died ..So my point still stands . We recieve AFTER belief.
     
  17. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Active Member

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    We ' MUCH MORE 'ARE SAVED BY HIS LIFE . not the death alone . Jesus dying FOR your sins does not guarantee you will freely believe the Gospel and be saved later . This is your calvinism speaking . Glorification is the problem . Jesus has dealt with the sin problem ..Your error is believing that because He payed for everyone sins they automatically should receive the atonement and should be justified and should be glorified . This is because you've swallowed the idea that we're saved by the cross . Without the resurection there is no salvation.
     
  18. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Active Member

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    Believers HAVE recieved the Atonement. Yes AFTER believing the Gospel .
     
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  19. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    If their sins have been dealt with, they have nothing to answer to God for.
    Those sins have been dealt with.

    Barry,
    This presents a contradiction.:(

    If sins are dealt with, then they are dealt with.
    They will never be brought up at the Judgment, for those whose sins have been paid for.
    According to God's word, He casts them from Him as far as east is from west, and those sins and iniquities are remembered no more.
    If He actually did that for everyone at the cross, then all the sins of all men are forgiven, and they enjoy a right standing with God based on the death of His Son.

    It's not potential, it's actual.
    Sins were actually paid for in the sight of God, when the Lord Jesus was put on that tree.

    So...
    According to Scripture, whose sins are forgiven, and whose are not?
    Belief is a result of election.

    A person can only come to Christ if they are drawn ( John 6:44 ), and no one can come to Christ unless it has been given to them of the Father to do so ( John 6:64-65 ).
    Christ will only give eternal life to the ones given to Him by the Father ( John 17:2 ), and only the ones that are ordained to eternal life, will believe ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ).

    So, everything was accomplished for God's children ( the "whosoever believeth" ) at the cross and when we were without strength and without the knowledge of it.
    It all comes before belief, that it might be of grace, and not of works.:)
     
    #19 Dave G, Jul 30, 2020 at 9:32 AM
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2020 at 9:50 AM
  20. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    This is my understanding of God's word speaking, Barry.

    Let's leave John Calvin, John Wesley and John R. Rice out of it, OK?
    I didn't go to a theology book to arrive at conclusions from Scripture...

    I read it, and I understand it for myself with no man's help.
    All I did was to obey the Lord in 1 Peter 2:2 and 2 Timothy 2:15.;)
    Amen.
    Let's look at it again, Barry.

    When was the atonement received?
    While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

    When were believers justified by His blood?
    At the same time they were reconciled to God...
    By the death of His Son:

    " For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." ( Romans 5:12 ).

    Barry,
    Track the pronouns...
    If this is referring to all men indiscriminately, then all men were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, Jesus Christ.
    Their relationship was re-instituted, and they enjoy the favor of God.

    You now have a contradiction:

    If all men were reconciled by the death of His Son, then why are people going to be judged?
    For their unbelief?
    Unbelief is a sin, according to John 16:9.

    If this is speaking about all men ( and not God's elect, chosen in Christ from the foundation of the world, Ephesians 1:4-11 ), then their sins were nailed to the cross and their sin-debt to God was paid for them.
    That includes the sin of unbelief.

    According to this:

    " And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
    14 blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
    " ( Colossians 2:13-14 ).

    The believer's sins ( all trespasses ) were nailed to His cross.
    So, what did the atonement actually accomplish for those who would never believe?
     
    #20 Dave G, Jul 30, 2020 at 9:50 AM
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2020 at 9:56 AM
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