God and free will

[AVL1984]

Give 'em Heaven!

Where are the bible citations to back your positions?

Oh, that's right, there is the choice whether to WILL to use the bible, or not.

To whom are you addressing your comments, SGO? If it was to me, I have defended both sides of this issue not only on this board in years gone by, but, I had done so on the FFF and several other forums that have long since gone defunct. The great thing is that I don't owe anyone but God in Heaven and explanation. HE knows what I believe on the subject. I try to play the peacemaker and bring both sides together on such a divisive subject. If it's not been resolved in 400+ years, it's pretty clear that it's not going to be resolved here on these boards! Have a great weekend. Blessings.

I would define “free-will” as a will that is free from any influence. That is, a person sees the choices (good or evil) and makes a decision without any other influence in that decision.

That was, of course, the second lie of Satan in the garden. The first was Eve wouldn’t surely die.

The second was that she would be “like God” in knowing good and evil. Only God has the free will to choose good over evil without any other influence.

peace to you

So, from the position you've just posted, you are Calvinistic in viewpoint, correct? This, if so, would still lead to the "foreknowledge" of God. Didn't God say he knew certain people in the Bible BEFORE they were born? Didn't the prophets prophecy about a ruler in Persia several hundred years before he was even born? Doesn't the Bible say that God is "all-knowing?"Isn't this just one reason that both those who hold the Calvinistic viewpoint, and those who hold to free will fight against abortion? Seems strange to think that he would keep giving people choices on whether or not to follow him. Pharoah had a chance to repent and relent and release the people of Israel from bondage but didn't. His "free will" stopped him. HE hardened his own heart, and then finally, in the end, God hardened his heart. The Philippian jailer made a choice once he heard Pauls voice telling him not to do himself any harm (he was all ready to commit suicide and die without Christ, though I'm sure he probably heard about Christ while Paul was in that jail), but instead came and asked..."What must I do to be saved?" A choice! Free will. Joshua in chapter 24 of that book asks the people to make a choice of whether or not they are going to serve the other gods they knew of or the living God, and then gave the declaration of how he and his house were going to serve the LORD! Choice, again given. I can argue for the Calvinistic side just as strongly. It doesn't reveal which side I'm on. That's between me and the LORD. I only owe HIM an explanation of where I stand and what conclusion the Holy Spirit led me to. And, as I've said in a previous statement, this, to me at least, is a fruitless, unproductive subject, especially after 400 years of it not being able to be settled. Still, at times it is a fun exercise as long as it doesn't try to alienate the other side from the Bible, service to Christ, and building the Kingdom. Hope you have a great weekend. Blessings.

 

[Paul from Antioch]

Peace to ALL of you is my hope & prayer. Let's not forget the love, mercy & kindness of the One who saved us by HIS grace. It's OK with me to disagree on matters of theology, but it's NOT OK with me to be disagreeABLE & display such an attitude in our BB postings. That's a shortcoming, I guess, of internet forums like BB....We can't physically see each other most of the time. That's why we sometimes forget that it is quite hard for brothers of like faith & order to shake hands when they're both a pair of clenched fists. I'm not saying we need to always have to have a "Kum-by-Yah" (sp ?) touchy-feely relationship with each other....I can recall some knock-down, drag-out ones with my 6 YOlder brother & 12 YOlder sister...and how our mother would fret over trying to get us back in our respective corners!! But then we were teenagers when those spats took place. Now we're older & as the Apostle Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 13 we need to stop these kinds of things, especially today when our "Opposing Team" is on the loose, "....seeking whom to devour." Right?....RIGHT!

 

[SGO]

Ah, so sorry. I no feet in the box.
Only post #22 in this whole thread has a bible reference and that not even directly related to the OP question, although still relevant.

 

[AVL1984]

Ah, so sorry. I no feet in the box.
Only post #22 in this whole thread has a bible reference and that not even directly related to the OP question, although still relevant.

Not every response requires a bible reference. I may not have given the references, but I did, in my post elude to certain portions of the Bible, and the situations they involved. I do think I said something about Joshua 24...so that would be a reference, IMHO. I also gave a point in the Bible that happened in the book of Acts, I believe that being Acts 16 where Paul is in jail and the earthquake knocks the doors opened, and the Philippian jailer came in and asked Paul what he had to do to be saved....again..a REFERENCE! So...don't know about your feet in the box...but it doesn't sound very sanitary! LOL

 

[AVL1984]

I would define “free-will” as a will that is free from any influence. That is, a person sees the choices (good or evil) and makes a decision without any other influence in that decision.

That was, of course, the second lie of Satan in the garden. The first was Eve wouldn’t surely die.

The second was that she would be “like God” in knowing good and evil. Only God has the free will to choose good over evil without any other influence.

peace to you

It's clear from the Genesis account that God gave man a "free will" and also gave him a set of instructions on what he could and could not eat. Man, of his own free will chose to eat of the fruit of the tree, though Eve was the one who was deceived. Man took the fruit willingly. If you notice in that passage the opening chapters of Genesis, you'll find that Eve even ADDS to what the Lord had commanded Adam when she said that God has said "Neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die." What was Eve doing talking to a serpent anyway? That would have made me suspiciouos.

 

[AustinC]

Thank you very much. I can and HAVE argued both positions, and others to boot. I don't insult very easily, but thanks for trying!

Atheists can argue both sides. That means nothing. However, it's clear you are swimming in the shallows of the evanjellyfish pond of theological mishmash.

 

[AVL1984]

Atheists can argue both sides. That means nothing. However, it's clear you are swimming in the shallows of the evanjellyfish pond of theological mishmash.

You are definitely entitled to your opinion, austin, no matter how incorrect it is. Have fun TRYING to upset people It doesn't work so easily with me. I don't fluster so easily. I grew up in a very large family, grew up in churches that loved to try to intimidate people, and at that time, it used to phase me quite a bit. When it's people I don't know hiding behind a keyboard and a screen, I don't worry too awfully much. Even if I did know you and you were sitting right in front of me, you wouldn't be able to accomplish what you're trying to. Have a nice day. BLESSINGS!

 

[AustinC]

Give 'em Heaven!

Where are the bible citations to back your positions?

Oh, that's right, there is the choice whether to WILL to use the bible, or not.

The evanjellyfish community avoids doctrine and talks of practical application. The problem is that they are really no different than Mormons or other Bible based cults. It's all "love bombing" with no basis for belief.
I'd rather discuss theological differences between Pelagian, Semi-pelagian and Augustinian beliefs than listen to a baseless, shallow teaching of "let's just forget the Bible and just get along."

 

[AustinC]

You are definitely entitled to your opinion, austin, no matter how incorrect it is. Have fun TRYING to upset people It doesn't work so easily with me. I don't fluster so easily. I grew up in a very large family, grew up in churches that loved to try to intimidate people, and at that time, it used to phase me quite a bit. When it's people I don't know hiding behind a keyboard and a screen, I don't worry too awfully much. Even if I did know you and you were sitting right in front of me, you wouldn't be able to accomplish what you're trying to. Have a nice day. BLESSINGS!

You don't provide anything of value, which seems to you to be "I don't fluster very well." That's fine. You are free to be empty of opinion.

 

[AVL1984]

You don't provide anything of value, which seems to you to be "I don't fluster very well." That's fine. You are free to be empty of opinion.

Wow. I have to say, you do like to argue. Really a Godly attitude. This will be my last post to you in this thread, but please, feel free to comment more. I know you won't be able to help yourself. I've dealt with too many of your kind over the years and don't play that game. AGAIN. BLESSINGS!

 

[AustinC]

Wow. I have to say, you do like to argue. Really a Godly attitude. This will be my last post to you in this thread, but please, feel free to comment more. I know you won't be able to help yourself. I've dealt with too many of your kind over the years and don't play that game. AGAIN. BLESSINGS!

Wow, you are incapable of sharing your opinion. Best if you don't comment at all if you cannot express your faith. For all we know, you're a Mormon. You are actually playing the game and I am the one pushing you to stop playing and actually be honest.

 

[canadyjd]

It's clear from the Genesis account that God gave man a "free will" and also gave him a set of instructions on what he could and could not eat. Man, of his own free will chose to eat of the fruit of the tree, though Eve was the one who was deceived. Man took the fruit willingly. If you notice in that passage the opening chapters of Genesis, you'll find that Eve even ADDS to what the Lord had commanded Adam when she said that God has said "Neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die." What was Eve doing talking to a serpent anyway? That would have made me suspiciouos.

Adam sinned on purpose, though he was influenced by Eve. Eve was deceived, her decision influenced by Satan.

Adam and Eve had human will, probably as close to free will anyone will have, though both were influenced by another.

The point I made is that the very concept of “free will” is a lie of Satan told to Eve. Although they knew “good and evil” afterward, they did not know good and evil as God knows good and evil.

God uses His perfect will to make choices, something that we cannot experience.

Our choices have many outside/inside influences, none of which give us perfect knowledge of good/evil nor the ability to choose even if we could perfectly discern the difference.

Most of the time we use “free will” specifically concerning the decision to seek salvation by faith in Jesus.

All the other choices that people make that are given as proof of free will simply miss the point of the debate.

edit to add:

No one would have been “suspicious” of the talking snake in the garden since no experience of deception had ever occurred.

peace to you

 

[37818]

God uses His perfect will to make choices, . . .

Choices are temporal and finite. Events are temporal and finite.

 

[AVL1984]

Adam sinned on purpose, though he was influenced by Eve. Eve was deceived, her decision influenced by Satan.

Adam and Eve had human will, probably as close to free will anyone will have, though both were influenced by another.

The point I made is that the very concept of “free will” is a lie of Satan told to Eve. Although they knew “good and evil” afterward, they did not know good and evil as God knows good and evil.

God uses His perfect will to make choices, something that we cannot experience.

Our choices have many outside/inside influences, none of which give us perfect knowledge of good/evil nor the ability to choose even if we could perfectly discern the difference.

Most of the time we use “free will” specifically concerning the decision to seek salvation by faith in Jesus.

All the other choices that people make that are given as proof of free will simply miss the point of the debate.

edit to add:

No one would have been “suspicious” of the talking snake in the garden since no experience of deception had ever occurred.

peace to you

Then please, if Eve wasn't deceived, then why does th Bible itself elude to the fact that she was??? (2 Cor 11:3)

 

[canadyjd]

Then please, if Eve wasn't deceived, then why does th Bible itself elude to the fact that she was??? (2 Cor 11:3)

Adam sinned on purpose, though he was influenced by Eve. Eve was deceived, her decision influenced by Satan.......

Please notice the second sentence where I stated, “Eve was deceived...”

Peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Choices are temporal and finite. Events are temporal and finite.

Maybe for us, as a general rule, though the decision to accept Christ as Savior reaps infinite benefits.

God’s choices have eternal consequences and were made before He invented “time”.

peace to you

 

[AVL1984]

Please notice the second sentence where I stated, “Eve was deceived...”

Peace to you

You're correct, you did. I apologize, I did misread that statement. That's what I get for trying to odo too many things at one time on the computer and off the computer as well.

 

[AustinC]

Proverbs 19:21

“Many are the plans in a person’s heart, but it is the Lord’s purpose that prevails.”

Acts 5:39

“But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.”

James 4:14-15

“Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. Instead, you ought to say, ‘If it is the Lord’s will, we will live and do this or that.’”

 

[utilyan]

I would define “free-will” as a will that is free from any influence.

A Calvinist would redefine every word that doesn't fit with their agenda.

Even God doesn't have free will under those dumb terms.

 

[canadyjd]

A Calvinist would redefine every word that doesn't fit with their agenda.

Even God doesn't have free will under those dumb terms.

Only God has free will under that definition.

peace to you