God Can Do Whatever He Wants To Do With Whoever He Wants To Do It

"...we saw his star in the east, and are come to worship him."


????

 

I don't accept that seeking God and being drawn by God are the same thing. How can they be? Seeking is an action that humans do; drawing is an action that God does. They are different things.

I've got an entirely different opinion on that than reformed theology. The proof verse is from Psalm 14. Now in this context, about 1,000 BC, it is true that no one outside of Israel seeked God, that is, the one true, monotheistic God. Pagans didn't seek Yahweh. And it was true in the early to mid-first century, when Paul quoted Psalm 14. But it's no longer true today! Just look around at all the religions and belief systems in place. They are all seeking God (or a god.)

There is no paradox. Seeking is not the same as being drawn.

False. Take Unitarians. I'd say they are not regenerated. Yet they seek God.

Agreed.

True, the natural man lacks the Holy Spirit so he cannot understand the things of God.

Not true. People all over the world seek God.

Coming to God is not the same as seeking God.

 

You mean like Herod said?

Where does the text state they knew the child was the Christ?

 

Nope, I suppose they had access to the prophecies of the Old Testament. They were seers, astrologers, fortune tellers. They would use any method they had at their disposal to try to predict the future.

 

Does Christ commit Himself to all who believe in HIS name?

No, in John 2:23-25 Jesus rejects the belief (will) of these people. (BTW the word believe in vs. 23 same word in John 3:16.) they displayed belief, but it was rejected by JESUS. (ESV) 23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many believed in his name when they saw the signs that he was doing. 24 But Jesus on his part did not entrust himself to them, because he knew all people 25 and needed no one to bear witness about man, for he himself knew what was in man.

One then should, and rightly so, ask the question what belief/or faith is accepted by Christ and when does He accept faith.

Enter John 3. Jesus converses with a learned teacher of Israel, Nicodemus. This Teacher explains his position, ie. belief in Jesus, "we know(statement of belief) that you are a teacher come from God". Nicodemus is by sheer human reasoning deducing this knowledge. If then faith precedes regeneration then Jesus should have congratulated this wise teacher.

But notice the response of Jesus to Nicodemus' knowledge.
3 Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again(can also be rendered born from above) he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Jesus says to Nicodemus no matter how much human reasoning you apply to your soul's salvation the first thing that must happen, you must be born from above.

Now Nic did not understand.
Jesus explains, That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. This is two distinct births. First birth is only flesh. The second or new birth is spirit from The Spirit. The ability of The Spirit in contrast to the flesh, in spiritual matters, is detailed by Paul in 1 Corinthians 2:13,14

13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.

14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Now notice the knowledge of those who experience this New Birth or birth from above.
Jesus uses the illustration of the wind.

Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

What a tremendous truth, you do not know you are born again until after you are born again.
This requires then that regeneration (new birth) precede faith.

Why?

Because if the opposite were true then faith would demand "the wind" or The Spirit to blow or work right here. This would violate the unknown work of The Spirit that Jesus clearly sets forth to Nicodemus and us in John 3:1-8.

BTW after the unknown work of The Spirit is begun through the new birth faith can be placed, hence Jesus further explaination to Nicodemus in John 3:10-21.

 

Not true, Allan. It is another faulty presupposition of yours.

And to say that God does not save by grace alone is terrible!

It does not matter if it is common or salvific grace- NO grace requires something on the part of the other to be grace.

Even Arminians know this.

???

You don't have a theology to stay on track with. That is the problem with people who are not Calvinists and will not claim to be Arminians- they ahve no theology that you can pin down.

The fact of the matter is that many do NOT stay where they are; they are forced to. That fact alone is enough to undermine this notion that God NEVER forces anybody to do anything against their will.

 

Lots of people seek God. That's why there are so many false religions. Look at Oprah Winfrey. The problem is they refuse to submit to the only true God.

 

Precisely. That's what Psalm 14 says. That's what Paul repeated in Romans 3. People in that time did not seek the one, true God of Israel. However, nowadays, the evidence of people seeking God (the Judeo-Christian God as well as other gods) is all around us.

 

Are you contending that all religions are a viable means of salvation?

If not, be advised it sounds like you are.

Seeking a religion and having the ability to come to Christ are two different things.
Paul is writing to Jews in Romans 3:9-18 who believed they had sought and found God. Paul tells them what they thought they were doing was absolutely useless.
9What then? Are we Jews[a] any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both(N) Jews and(O) Greeks, are(P) under sin, 10as it is written:

(Q) "None is righteous, no, not one;
11no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."
13(R) "Their throat is(S) an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive."
(T) "The venom of asps is under their lips."
14(U) "Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness."
15(V) "Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16in their paths are ruin and misery,
17and(W) the way of peace they have not known."
18(X) "There is no fear of God before their eyes."

 

Are unregenerate Catholics seeking the one true God?
Are unregenerate Lutherans seeking one true God?

Don't they affirm that Jesus is God's son?

 

Do you believe those in John 2 who believed in Him were believing on Him for born-again salvation from sin, and He rejected them for this?

Or, was it that they were believing in Him for some ulterior motive, such as the text seems to suggest. He knows what is in man, true. We are all sinners, including them. Their believing on Him could not have been for salvation from sin. All that come to Him, He saves, and they come to Him because they are drawn to Him to be saved, realizing also why they need to be saved.

I don't think this text can say what I think you are trying to make it say: In that some come to Him to be born again, and are thus rejected. I believe other Scriptures teach this to be impossible.

Jesus says in John 10:10 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep."

I don't believe Jesus rejects anyone for salvation, when they come to Him for this. I believe you are suggesting otherwise. You never elaborated on what type of faith saves, nor what type of faith was represented in John 2. If you did, it was rather unclear.

 

They do not seek the one true God.

Let me illustrate.

I am 6'3" tall.

I am over 300 pounds.

Now someone may SAY they are seeking for Luke2427 but if they are REALLY looking for someone who is 5'3" 150 pounds then they are not REALLY seeking luke2427. They are looking for a version of luke2427 that they find more appealing.

NO unregenerate person is seeking for the REAL God.

 

No, of course not.

Exactly. Seeking Christ and having the ability to come to Christ are two different things.

I'm saying that people can seek Christ, but unless he draws them they won't get saved.

 

So Lutherans and Catholics are not seeking the real God?

 

No, they are not.

They are seeking a false god.

Most people's seeking is little more than mental idol carving. Men are actually looking for a god that suits their fancy.

That pursuit cannot rightly be called "seeking after the one true God".

 

Well, I did.

 

OK, please point out the error in this:

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth.
And in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
and born of the virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died and was buried.
He descended into hell.
On the third day He rose again from the dead.
He ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty.
From thence He will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy Christian church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen