God changes his mind often?

1. My brother, both of us are only trying to understand a God who decided to go on display with His glory, which we see in nature, Scripture and ultimately in His Son (Ps 19:1; John 1:14).

2. I do not presume on the knowledge of God; if anyone is doing that it is the open theist.

3. I'm with the psalmist:

4 Before a word is on my tongue
you know it completely, O LORD.

5 You hem me in—behind and before;
you have laid your hand upon me.

6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
too lofty for me to attain. (Ps 139:4-6, NIV).

4. One day, we will all find ourselves joining Job,

'Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?'
"Therefore I have declared that which I did not understand,
Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know." (Job 42:3, NASB)

5. We have all misspoke at one point or the other. But our task should be to reflect the God who has revealed Himself in the Bible to us as accurately as we can. And that only comes with the supernature aid of the Holy Spirit, who knows the mind of God (1 Cor 2:10-14).

6. Are you familiar with the works of Dr. Boyd, the leading spokesman of open theism? Well, he is the one who says that God cannot be all-knowing if man truly possess libertarian free will. You might want to argue with him about that.

7. According to Boyd in the libertarian free will schema, not until man act is that is a thing known; until he acts that which he intends to do is unknown to all--even God.

8. Then, you and I are arguing this whole thing from two different perspective. I cannot continue to debate with you if you are a different stripe of opent theist, who disagrees with Boyd, one of the gurus of open theist, for we will be butting head against each other and against him. It doesn't make sense at all.

9. Here Luke in Luke 22:22:

The Son of Man will go as it has been decreed, but woe to that man who betrays him."

10. God decrees it, but man is 100% responsible for his actions; do I fully understand how all this works? By no means do I presume to know how it all works. But my theology allows me to conceive of the sovereign decree of God in all things and at the same time, maintain the 100% responsibility of man.

11. No wonder the open theist is in love with the process theist, who says God is becoming what He will eventually be.

12. Mark 13:32 in no way overturns the omnisciences of God. I suggest you go back to the basics of hermeneutics--interpret a difficult text in light of a plainer one. There's too many texts that point to a set day of the end of the world.

 

This is why, when I see an apparent contradiction in God repenting, I have to side with God never repenting. How can God repent if He already knows everything before it ever happens in our perception of time?

It makes perfect sense for God to phrase it that way for our benefit (which is what makes it an anthropomorphism). God does X to get our reaction, after which He does Y -- but God didn't actually "repent". He planned the sequence of events from start to finish (including his mock-repentance).

The only alternative is for God not to know how we'd react, and God adjusting to this "new" knowledge.

 

But this is what the open theist and process theist struggle with. But they don't like what you have to say. :thumbs:

 

I would too, ask my wife! :smilewinkgrin: The foreknowledge aspect separates my position from Open Theism’s, causal determinism separates my position from Classical/closed Theism, I fall somewhere in the middle.

I don’t agree with him on LFW having to fit the OVT schema of God not having foreknowledge. There are other ways to Biblically reach the truth of free will which must be reconciled with the scripturally revealed nature of God.

I think most Calvinist would prefer to presume free will to only fit along with OVT, the label of “A different stripe of Open Theist” is evident to this fact.

Well, if you don’t limit God’s ability to be sovereign and allowing human volition at the same time by placing Him in a theological box with a preconceived deterministic view - then account for the revealed truths of His nature, such as God is incapable of moral inequity, I would suggest that God has not, and could not, have decreed the existence of evil in all things. Seems though that you wish to think of that position as domesticating God, whatever that implies.

God’s nature does not change. God’s creatures were made with God-given free will and that has not changed. God’s creatures do change, they are converted, and only by the influence of the Holy Spirit can they do so by the free gift of grace enlightening the heart which calls for a response of faith. Without God we cannot, without us God will not.

(Heb 11:6) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Omnisciences are a man made finite term that attempts to explain the knowledge of God. If it was that “simple” to explain God’s foreknowledge and understand it by the man made finite term “Omniscient” I wouldn’t have had to reconcile the “Problem OF Evil” from creation VS the Truths of God’s nature, along with the issue of God-given human volition VS Causal Determinism, the fact that God can’t do anything such as things against the truth of His nature, and I’d have took the easy way out and just surrender to becoming a 5 point Hard Determinist Hyper Calvinist,... like Amy recently did. :laugh:

 

This is only using more labels against those who disagree with your view because you don’t like what they have to say. But here is how I see your position:

According to Calvinist doctrine for God to be sovereign He must have predestined everything, true?

1) Necessarily God has fore determined everything that will happen
2) God has determined X
3) Therefore it is necessary that X will happen

In conclusion of the Calvinist sovereignty doctrine that God must have predetermined everything before it will happen and totally deny man having any free will to alter the future as not a possible sovereign decision of God, presumably because of lack of control, then one must agree that God is responsible for all happenings regardless of the origin being good or evil.

 

You think I'm a hard determinist, hyper-Calvinist?

 

1. What do you mean by causal determinism? Do you wish to overthrow the clear reading of Isaiah 46:9, 10; Lk 22:22; Acts 2:23 and so on.

2. And what is that other approach to rescue God from open theist and traditional theist?

3. I'm interested in what Scripture teaches about the knowledge and sovereignty of God.

4. I have little patience with anyone who denies the sovereignty of God in all things. I wonder how true they are to Scripture?

5. If God has decreed the existence of all evil, Who then is responsible for the existence of evil?

6. What prevents the person or thing from being sovereign?

7. What are you saying here?

8. What do you call God's knowledge of all things past, present, and future?

 

Post #45 might help to clue you in on the causal. As for me wishing to overthrow clear reading... maybe you should double check what you’re throwing out presenting a question like that...

The nature of God does not need rescuing, His nature is Truth and Love, His promise is sure, and His counsel will stand in truth for all that will believe. As for Biblically reaching the truths about His character which do NOT go along with your doctrines of Him "creating" a work of evil:

(Psa 18:30) As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.


(Deu 32:4) He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

His work is perfect:
H8549
תּמים
tâmîym
taw-meem'
From H8552; entire (literally, figuratively or morally); also (as noun) integrity, truth: - without blemish, complete, full, perfect, sincerely (-ity), sound, without spot, undefiled, upright (-ly), whole.



Without iniquity:
H5766
עלהעולהעולהעולעול
‛evel ‛âvel ‛avlâh ‛ôlâh ‛ôlâh
eh'-vel, aw'-vel, av-law', o-law', o-law'
From H5765; (moral) evil: - iniquity, perverseness, unjust (-ly), unrighteousness (-ly), wicked (-ness).

Likewise, my patience tends to run thin toward “your” preconceived boxed view of what God’s sovereignty must consist of, moreover, towards anyone who denies the revealed truths of His nature.

Apparently you presume God is responsible for the existence of evil, which leads to theological fatalism in its prime, that aside, would you like to show me in Genesis where God created evil? Try Gen 1:31.

I don’t share the Calvinist doctrinal assumption or dogmatic belief that by man having free will it somehow relates to meaning that God could not be sovereign.

Maybe you ought to drop the numbering gimmick and pay attention to the points made during the conversation instead of confusing it with multiple addition point making. If you’re going to play this multiple subject, one line, smokescreen point making and intend to engage in casting multiple scriptural food fights to avoid, deflect, and confuse the issues this debate will not go far. I have no desire to partake in tactics designed to argue past each other.

Let’s go back, I addressed your labeling accusation of open and process theism that you gave in response to my reply to your basic analyses that (God must be sovereign in decreeing evil, and your theology allows you to conceive this while making man 100% responsible, although you do not presume to understand how it all works.) to which I said:

“Well, if you don’t limit God’s ability to be sovereign and allowing human volition at the same time by placing Him in a theological box with a preconceived deterministic view - then account for the revealed truths of His nature, such as God is incapable of moral inequity, I would suggest that God has not, and could not, have decreed the existence of evil in all things. Seems though that you wish to think of that position as domesticating God, whatever that implies.”

Now, care to deal with the truth in the issue of God’s loving, good, and true nature not changing and explanation of free will purpose which I gave in response to your deflecting accusations?

God’s nature does not change. God’s creatures were made with God-given free will and that has not changed. God’s creatures do change, they are converted, and only by the influence of the Holy Spirit can they do so by the free gift of grace enlightening the heart which calls for a response of faith. Without God we cannot, without us God will not.

(Heb 11:6) But without faith itis impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Wonderful and amazing!

 

Nah, …not really. :smilewinkgrin:


…I was just teasing.


I actually would hope you’re still searching and comparing and think you are.

 

Context.

In the realm of sin God has no need of repentance.

Genesis 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.​

No sin or lie here on God's part that He needs to repent from.​

And God is stilled grieved with mankind to this very day...

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.​

How can the perfect omni-everything Being be grieved with His own creation?

I don't know but we are commanded not to do it, best take His advise no matter how improbable it seems.


HankD

 

Because God is not willing that any should perish but they do.

And the timing of His repentance was not as it was happening but when He foreknew/foresaw it.

This, of course, makes God a liar on 2 accounts: 1) It says that He desired most of His human creation to perish when He says He doesn't. 2) Then that He lies about His reaction to it in His own revelation of Himself.

There you have it -- "from the mouths of babes!" :laugh:

skypair

 

There may be another way to look at this that you haven't thought about, HankD.

The earth was where God cast down Lucifer and his demons. Earth was, therefore, the only place in the whole universe that was not perfect KoG. Couldn't God have created man in heaven with Himself rather than in earth with His enemy? Or could He have regretted that it had to be that way in order for His plans to come to fruitition??

There you go! They have free will to do averse to God's will!! Why do you fight it?

skypair

 

I don't.

It's a question which doesn't have an answer. Like I said "I don't know" but I still believe He is grieved with our behavior on occassion.

HankD

 

You must be an RC Sproul fan. :laugh: I often read his books and he will come to a point that he has no explanation for a doctrine (the one I'm thinking of just now is the answer to how sin entered into the world) and...

... he will posit his opinion and ...

... he will give the free will answer (which usually makes good scriptural and rational sense)...

... and then he will dismiss the good sense answer saying the real answer can't be known!

Ah, well. I "brought the horse to the water" anyway.

skypair

 

I don't know who RC Sproul is.
If you are referring to me in your quote (or whoever's it is), I am not a horse.

But the little I know of Sproul from you seems good as it often takes a good degree of humility and/or honesty to say "I don't know" (my quote).


HankD

 

I see you have Sproul all figured out!

 

What is that?

 

Not when you are talking about basic doctrine, Hank. How do you feel about this "I don't know?"

"I don't know how God chooses whom He does to salvation." -- RC Sproul.

Do you know how God chooses who is saved, Hank?

skypair

 

Only God knows.

 

I hope I'm not repeating anything here, but my Bible translates the Gen 6:6 verse as "The Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart."

1 Samuel 15:29 Also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind.

James 1:17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.

Now, I use the NASB version because I just prefer that one. :thumbs: I believe it to be accurate, and whenever I have looked up verses in other versions, the translation has been consisent. So, I would have to say no, God does not change His mind. He was sorry in the same way I am sorry when one of my children disobeys me or disrespects me, especially by lying to me.