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God hardened their hearts

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Joseph_Botwinick, Jan 2, 2006.

  1. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Hello webdog.

    Yet you do not pray for their salvation? I repeat part of Helen's post for you: "Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved." (Bold added.)
    Romans 10:1

    (Thanks Helen. :cool: )


    Do those at your Church pray for their salvation?

    It is not truth they need to be drawn to but Jesus. It is not strength you need but prayer and prayer for their salvation. "Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for my family and friends is that they may be saved."

    If God draws a man to Jesus then we have the promise that Jesus will rise them up at the last day.

    John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.


    john.
     
  2. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    johnp, whereas God's will never changes, man's does. So praying that someone changes their mind, or that the circumstances of their life will lead to that change is certainly Biblical.

    God knows everything. But for us, life is a series of learning experiences and, I don't know about you, but everytime I learn something new, my mind will change a bit about what I thought of it before. I changed from evolution to creation because of learning. And that DEFINITELY changed my desire about what I wanted to teach! Whether or not I was allowed to was determined by where I was teaching, but that is a different matter!

    Maybe it's not a different matter. I had the free will to desire to teach the truth I had learned, but in the public school system I was forbidden the permission to do it. I was, in a sense, their slave. But that did not change my desire (in fact, it only strengthened it) or my knowledge of the truth!
     
  3. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Are you sure you want that on record Helen?

    Praying that someone changes their mind? What sort of prayer is that then please? Asking God to act indirectly is ok then as long as He does not influence their desires?

    Can we stick with Romans 10:1 "Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved." Not change their minds. Not make circumstances more favourable but that they may be saved.

    No Helen you did as you desired, I thought you believed in free will. :cool: Did they force you teach lies? How can you say you did not believe those things you taught to children?
    We all make errors. I wouldn't tell you of the things I am guilty of, that's the only difference.

    New facts change us. They threaten and disturb us.

    Are you down to the six days? :cool:

    john.
     
  4. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    You must be new here, John. Am I 'down to six days'? My husband is Barry Setterfield (www.setterfield.org)

    I hope that answers your question.

    And yes, they force you to teach lies in public schools if you want to retain your job. I ended up 'changing masters' and opened my own private Christian school.

    Maybe my words when I ask that God change someone's mind aren't exactly right, but God knows what I mean. He knows I am pleading that the circumstances of that person's life be played out in such a way that the person WILL see the truth of God and WILL respond to Him.

    I could not pray otherwise. I could not refuse to pray for others! I will pray for their circumstances, for their safety, for their health, knowing always that God's will will be done, but also that prayers are heard and are answered. (ref: the Bible).

    By the way, I don't find new facts either threatening or disturbing for the most part. They are simply additions to my knowledge.
     
  5. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Hello Helen.

    It does not. Who is Barry Setterfield?

    And your desire was to keep your job.

    The bible tells you to pray for their salvation. Romans 10:1 "Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved."

    Yet your doctrine wins out against scripture?

    For the most part.

    john.
     
  6. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    John, Barry wrote the paper for Stanford Research International in 1987 which showed the speed of light had changed measurable and the ultimate conclusion, although that was not part of his paper at that time, was that the universe is extremely young. Less than 10,000 years old. In the 18 years since then, he has written a number of papers explaining this and there is a timeline on his site which shows how radiometric dates can be corrected to biblical dates using the redshift curve data (why is also on his website). He is pretty widely known for his position on the age of the universe, the accuracy of a straightforward reading of the Bible, and the fact that the geologic column and the Bible are in total agreement regarding what catastrophes happened when.

    As far as the rest of your post goes, you are simply trying to pick a fight instead of discuss something and that is not what I am here for, although others may be.

    I have tried to present Scriptural doctrine and then you ask me 'yet your doctrine wins out against Scripture?'

    I resent that and my posts show no such thing. So please, find someone else to argue with.
     
  7. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Hello Helen.

    I apologise if I have offended you but you keep saying things around the subject not on it. The subject is Romans 10:1 where it says that Paul prayed for the salvation of others and you say he did not, or you say that he would have been right to pray for conditions that lead people to salvation. Am I correct or have I erred?
    Your post does incline to reject Paul's clear statement that he prayed for Israel to be saved which would not be to your doctrinal stance. Am I correct?

    I asked you if you had gone to six days and you replied that your husband believed in it. :cool:

    I will continue to oppose your belief whenever I get the oppotunity whether I address you directly or not. I am compelled to contend for the faith that was entrusted to me and God willing will.

    john.
     
  8. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    I am one of the foremost proponents of the six literal day creation on Baptist Board. I was the moderator of the creation/evolution forum for several years. If you took the time to read anything down there or in any of the subjects relating to it you would know that.

    In addition, my husband and I are of one mind.

    You have misinterpreted so much of what I have said that I really do give up. Let me post in summary that men have a choice -- freely given by God -- as to whether to accept or reject the salvation He has procured for us through Jesus Christ. He has chosen no one before they were born, to the eternal damnation of those that are left. His sacrifice was for all sin for all time and so all men have the opportunity and the ability to respond with a 'yes' to God. "Choose this day whom you will serve," "Come to me, all ye that labor and are heavy-laden" and so many other similar passages are not cosmic, cruell jokes played on a vast majority of humanity doomed to hell without ever having a real chance to respond to God. That is defamation of God's character from where I sit.

    The God I worship has a character of love and that love was exhibited to all who have ever lived through Christ, who was both the Promise and the Fulfilled Promise -- available to all on both sides of the Cross. I read a Bible that does not lie about that but urges all men who ever lived to seek God, because He MAY be found and, as the Bible also states, He is closer than so many suspect.
     
  9. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    Salute [​IMG] Back to worthy studies!
     
  10. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    I found this on a blog and for the life of me, I can't remember which one, so I give credit to the original author, although he remains elusive to my memory:


    The Arminian Prayer

    "God, I thank you that You provided salvation for every person and that everyone has the equal opportunity to that salvation. And I thank You for my salvation. Actually, I thank me some for my salvation because You gave us all the freedom to choose. Yes, God, every man You gave the freedom to choose or reject You. I chose You and I'm sure You're happy that I did.

    After You provided salvation for everybody it is good that somebody responds to it. I responded to it and I thank You. Well, really, it was my choice so I don't thank You for my response. I'm sure You're grateful to me that I responded. If I and some others had not chosen to respond You would not have any children and that would be too bad. So I know that You're delighted with those of us that had the good sense to do what is right, to love You and choose You.

    Everybody could have chosen You, but I'm the one who did. It is just too bad that those other people were not as clever as I am. God, I'm sure You're disappointed in them. But don't take it too hard. You still have us that had the brains to appropriate Your salvation. God, I'm obliged for Your part in my salvation. And though You have never said so, I'm sure You are appreciative to me for my part as well. There is no doubt that when I get to heaven You will let me know how grateful You are. We've worked this out together for our mutual benefit. I thank You and You thank me. How nice.

    We are a real team.

    And God, I especially thank You that I am not like those self-righteous Calvinist. Well, actually, You didn't have anything to do with that so I don't thank You. It was my choice to believe what I believe so I'm sure You are happy with me. Imagine me thinking that You were so egotistical as to do all the choosing Yourself. How unfair! Those Calvinist are so self-righteous to think that You would just save them while they do nothing but sin. But I'm not like that. I know I made the right decision when I chose You, God, and You can take great joy in it.

    To God be all the glory... Well, a little of it anyway.

    Amen."

    If you take offense at this, then you'll really be offended at what Spurgeon said about Arminian prayers. I'll post it later.

    Tom Butler
     
  11. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    This is not a valid conclusion from Arminian thought and constitutes a willful distortion of Arminian thought. It is essentially dishonest.

    I’m not an Arminian but:

    "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."
    Galileo
     
  12. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    We Reformed folks get beaten up all the time on this question of man's will vs. God's sovereignty. I submit that lost people act freely at all times within their nature. And I also submit that God does not save anyone against their will. Following is a beautiful picture of how the Holy Spirit operates in the life of a lost sinner to bring about salvation.

    Ezekiel 36:26 (God tells Ezekiel to tell the house of Israel)"I will give you a new heart and I will put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you year heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

    27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to follow my laws."

    A similar passage is found in Jeremiah 24:7:
    "I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the Lord. They will be my people, and I will be their God, for they will return to me with all their hearts."

    In each of those verses we find sovereign, unilateral acts by the Lord God to change the hearts of the very people who were at that moment in rebellion against Him; to exhange a heart of stone for a heart of flesh; to place His Spirit within them. Note what those sovereign acts will accomplish. The people will follow His decrees and carefully keep His laws; they will return to him with all their hearts. Willingly. Enthusiastically. Unforced devotion. Unforced obedience. Unviolated choice.
    That is precisely what happened to all of us who were convicted, illuminated, regenerated and drawn by the Holy Spirit to repentance and faith in our Lord Jesus.

    Tom Butler
     
  13. bjonson

    bjonson New Member

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    Tom,

    You nailed it with this post! That is exactly right.
     
  14. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    Okay, let's now see what Spurgeon, the prince of preachers, said about the prayers of Arminians:

    "An Arminian on his knees would pray desperately like a Calvinist. He cannot pray about free will: there is no room for it. Fancy him praying,

    “Lord, I thank thee I am not like those poor presumptuous Calvinists. Lord, I was born with a glorious free-will; I was born with power by which I can turn to thee of myself; I have improved my grace. If everybody had done the same with their grace that I have, they might all have been saved. Lord, I know thou dost not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves. Thou givest grace to everybody; some do not improve it, but I do. There are many that will go to hell as much bought with the blood of Christ as I was; they had as much of the Holy Ghost given to them; they had as good a change, and were as much blessed as I am. It was not thy grace that made us to differ; I know it did a great deal, still I turned the point; I made use of what was given me, and others did not-that is the difference between me and them.”

    That is a prayer for the devil, for nobody else would offer such a prayer as that. Ah, when they are preaching and talking very slowly, there may be wrong doctrine; but when they come to pray, the true thing slips out, they cannot help it. If a man talks very slowly, he may speak in a fine manner; but when he comes to talk fast, the old brogue of his country, where he was born, slips out. I ask you again, did you ever meet a Christian man who said, “I came to Christ without the power of the Spirit?” If you ever did meet such a man, you need have no hesitation in saying, “My dear sir, I quite believe it-and I believe you went away again without the power of the Spirit; and that you know nothing about the matter, and are in the gall of bitterness and the bond of iniquity.” Do I hear one Christian man saying, “I sought Jesus before he sought me. I went to the Spirit, and the Spirit did not come to me?” No, beloved; we are obliged, each one of us, to put our hands to our hearts, and say

    “Grace taught my soul to pray,
    And made my eyes o’erflow;
    ‘Twas grace that kept me to this day,
    And will not let me go.”

    Is there one here-a solitary one-man or woman, young or old, who can say, "I sought God before he sought me?" No; even you who are a little Arminian, will sing-
    "O yes! I do love Jesus-
    Because he first loved me"


    BTW, I know most Southern Baptists strongly deny being Arminians. We're sorta hybrids--a little bit of Calvin, a little bit of Arminius. Most of my fellow Baptists say they're not Arminian because they don't believe you can lose your salvation. But they have an Arminian view of free will and foreseen faith except---except--when they're praying.

    Tom Butler
     
  15. Major B

    Major B <img src=/6069.jpg>

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    Tom,

    Good to see you on the board. You may not remember me, I am a friend of your old pastor at East, brother Mike, and of the other brother Mike out at Oak Grove. "Hi, I'm Charley, and this is my brother Mike and my other brother Mike."
     
  16. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    Thanks Major B. I've been lurking here for a while, and just now getting up the courage to post anything. It has been a humbling experience. I thought I was a pretty decent student of the Bible, but some of the folks here leave me in the dust. Compared to them, I don't know nuthin'!! I am in awe of the depth of knowledge of people like you and Chuck Blair. Shoot, he could print out all his posts, stick them together, call it a book, and it'd sell like hotcakes.
    I've noticed that the discussion gets pretty hot on occasion on this board. Sometimes I cringe at some of the comments which seem to get a tad too personal, but I'm all for vigorous robust debate. I'm looking forward to more of this.

    Tom Butler
     
  17. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    What good is there in sin coming into the world from an omniscient God and at what purpose if we don’t have the will to do so? The Calvinist view of Total depravity robs us of ANY free will. If we can’t choose to sin or not, how could it be counted against us?

    I think a person who sits down to read the Bible without Calvinistic presumption will conclude that man has free will AND that God is sovereign. Working out this knowledge may not be as easy as adopting the philosophy of Men and we may be spoiled by it if not careful.
     
  18. Major B

    Major B <img src=/6069.jpg>

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    One of my missions is to add a little humor and gentle sarcasm. For instance, there is a large oil spill on a sidewalk. The first man comes along, and trips and says, "I should not have chosen to come this way." That man is an Arminian. A second man comes along and slips, and gets up and says, "God, thank you for making me come this way to experience this humility." That man is a hypercalvinist. A third man comes along, sees the oil, avoids it, and says, "Oh God, thank you for your grace." That man is a Calvinist. A last man comes along, sees the oil, sends for a truckload of sawdust, has it all swept up, disposes of the waste properly, posts warning signs for the remaining oil, and sends letters to 25 people describing his new ministry of preventing injury by oil spills, and asking for donations to set this up as a permanent ministry. That man is a Southern Baptist.
     
  19. Major B

    Major B <img src=/6069.jpg>

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    So, let me get this straight.

    Biblical philosophy is hijacking a term found only in the context of believers' financial offerings (free will) and constructing an entire theology of salvation around it.

    Human philosophy is accepting the overwhelming scriptural evidence that God is sovereign over His universe, and the concommitant overwhelming scriptural evidence that the human will is subject to the ability of the human, limited by sin, blindness and depravity.

    Got it. Yup. Don't make any sense, but there it is...
     
  20. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    Oh, I see, I’m hijacking an entire system of philosophical Bible theology of the necessity of believers to be depraved of free will to presumably have the ability to love God by logic.

    Human philosophy must logically make sense that an all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful God would want His creation to suffer in sin so that we could be justified by us being totally depraved of free will and come to Him.

    So in other words God in His truth must make perfect sense to man in order to establish the purpose of good and evil to exist or it would be contradictory to God for the purposes of His glory, otherwise man must be wrong and not able to love Him.

    Is that it?
     
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