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Featured God never designed or purposed to Save ALL men ever born.

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Iconoclast, Jan 13, 2022.

  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Doctor Bob has consistently preached and taught the grace of God in Salvation. For you to try to suggest that he does not have the correct gospel is just more evidence of the fact that you in actuality do not understand what the good news of the Gospel actually is. You speak of a form of a good news which is not actual but potential. You almost mix Works in with Grace and your explanations as in the case of Jonah so I think you'll be good for you maybe the reread the posting of 10th in the other men on here for Patiently laying out a Biblical case
     
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  2. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    There is no almost about it. The natural man chafes at the idea that he can do nothing to save himself but must depend wholly upon God to save him. That is why you can find churches on street corner after street corner teaching false gospels, which basically differ mainly on the what that they demand their hearers have to do, of their own fallen, corrupt will, to make their peace with God. The practical import of what they teach is that "Well, God has done everything He could to save you, and now He is just sitting back waiting to see if anyone will take Him up on His offer."
     
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  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The plural 'you' did include Judas. You want to excluded lost Judas because it does not fit your belief system.
     
  4. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Or because it doesn't fit the rest of Scripture.
     
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  5. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Do you believe that Judas was a sheep? John 10:15 "As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep."
     
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  6. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Again, you're still reading "sheep" with a particular mindset. The tenor of the words resonates with the Calvinistic mold, so I understand the strength of that mental band, being a former Calvinist myself.

    The "sheep" were simply Jews who had been obeying the scriptures when Christ showed up.
    They weren't following God the Father and so they were not of his sheep.

    Jer 50:17 Israel is a scattered sheep; the lions have driven him away:
    Do you suppose that the lions only drove the Calvinistically pre-selected sheep from eternity past or all the Israelites without distinction?

    I can show you vessels of wrath who became vessels of mercy:
    Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
    Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
    Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

    Who are the vessels of wrath? Eternally pre-selected sheep? Or:
    Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

    who had not the Son: Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    I, and you, like the Ephesians, were by nature the children of wrath because we had not the Son (unless you were born believing on Jesus) and then we obtained what?
    Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
    Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

    There, right there, basic Bible doctrine, children of wrath obtain mercy. Goats become Sheep.
     
  7. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    You sound like you believe that when Jesus said that He would lay down His life for His sheep, that what He really meant was, "I lay down my life for an amorphous category of people that I am calling my sheep."

    Also, do you believe that that one of these goats you believe can become a sheep can become a goat again, and then maybe a sheep again, and then maybe a goat again, etc.?
     
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  8. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    No, when he said he would lay down his life for the sheep, there, he was referring to those JEWS (Ezekiel 34:30-31) who were believing the scriptures and confessed him as the Messiah. He was being specific there. Other verses say he shed his blood for all men.

    In the church age, eternal security is a true doctrine, so that a sheep can never again become a goat.
    After the church age, eternal security holds no more true.
    But I realize this may be a bridge too far for now.
     
  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Before..2 tim.1:9
    Rev.12. Describes the conflict between seed of the woman...seed of the serpent.
     
  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    I am of the point of view Christ's atonement is the reason names are in the book of life. It provides an available gift to all. Mark 10:15. It is available to children without being of an age to believe, Mark 10:14. Otherwise, John 3:3-18. 1 John 5:4-5, Revelation 3:5, John 1:12-13. God solely does the saving and the keeping, John 10:27-30.
     
  11. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Thank you for your clear confession of Christ.
    The children given by the Father are scattered worldwide...the gospel goes worldwide of Necessity.
    Not everyone is going to be saved.
    It was never the intention to save every person after the fall.
     
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  12. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    You are suggesting something "available "...This OP. Is speaking of actual design and certainty.You and others deny the eternal purpose of God as revealed.
    The question is not the free offer of the gospel.
    Mt.28 is being fulfilled as we speak.
    The gospel is being offered, declared freely, worldwide.
    Everyone given by the Father to the Son will come to Jesus.
     
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  13. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    So you are saying that once man, by his own effort, does (whatever a preacher says is required for the person to perform), that salvation is a done deal based on (whatever a preacher says is required for the person to perform). What you propose leads to libertinism since you say a person saves himself but after that it doesn't matter what he does because he said the "sinner's prayer" or "walked the aisle" or " cried at the 'altar' " or was baptized. Man can only be preserved by God and persevere by the power of God because God saved him in the first place.

    Salvation is all of God from first to last, with no admixture of human effort. Romans 9:15-18 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

    The clay cannot tell the Potter what to do, regardless of what schemes humans may devise.
     
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  14. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    No. Judas was not in any way a sheep, and Jesus who had Judas at the table knew this, Luke 22:20-22.
     
  15. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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  16. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Then the sins of Judas were not imputed to Christ, as Christ died for His sheep, according to Christ's own words.
     
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  17. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    A huge problem that the universal atonement people have is that they claim that God punishes sins twice - once at the cross on His Son and then a second time on the lost at the return of Christ. They should stop and consider what an obviously heinous false teaching they are espousing.
     
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  18. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    False accusation. Luke 22:20 proves your understanding is in error. The only argument against Luke 22:20 is the fallacy of a special pleading, the plural you must exclude Judas.
     
  19. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    You trying to hide behind the son of perdition is not getting it done.
    You ignore the whole teaching if the bible thinking you have found loophole but in reality you cannot answer any aspect of the O.P.
    God has not designed to save everyone post fall.
    Never was the intention.
    Was the flood in Noah's day designed to promote universal salvation?
    Did the Egyptian soldiers drowning in the red sea promote the gospel being available to them?
    You have no where to go on this.
     
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  20. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    1 Timothy 2:4-6, ". . . Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. . . ." According to verse 6 the payment for the sin is only once. αντιλυτρον is singular for all. "all" is plural. 1 Timothy 4:10, ". . . in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. . . ."
     
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