Featured God will call His Elect to Salvation

Does anybody have any idea what this post was reported for?

 

Sorry, but demonstrating your argument to be mere fallacious rhetoric is about the best I got to offer.

I suppose I could further demonstrate how you continue to argue with fallacious Ad Hom to avoid the issue raised against your argument, but it’s pretty apparent to me you wouldn’t understand the direction I was trying to take you in and would simply be insulted and that would be your only focus if I continued to challenge the logic and critical thinking skills behind what you consider a reasonable way to debate.

 

But... you didn't. That's the thing. You didn't. Just saying you did doesn't make it so.

Keep trying. You'll get it one day.

I'm glad you reference ad hominem. Now, look back at your post, and if you know beans from apple butter about what the term means, you'll see that post is full of ad hominem.

A freshman level class would help you here. It really would.

 

If you say so. :laugh:

I'll bet you are you. :laugh:

 

Oh no!!! Not laughy faces!!

Powerful stuff there, Benji.

 

Aw,why not? He's deep into his post reporting addiction now. Soon he'll be reporting on himself! LOL!

 

On any other message board, it would be considered an abuse of the report system. But I guess the mods here aren't going to say anything.

I just think it's funny that he's reporting everybody for every trivial piece of nonsense, all the while, sending me unsolicited and taunting visitor messages.

 

ALL that we need to do is to unleash the bible, as we have Jesus and the Apsotles on our side, and hopefully, their godly wisdom is sufficient for you!

 

I don't care what side of the debate you're on...this one is hilarious!!!!!

 

His problem is not philosophy. Good philosophy is the handmaiden of the Queen of the Sciences, theology.

The problem is that he does not know philosophy any better than he knows theology.

 

Very well stated. No one even touched the main points being made here...

 

No bible for it?

"...choose you this day whom ye will serve..." Joshua 24:15

"The Lord said to Moses, “How long will these people treat me with contempt? How long will they refuse to believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have performed among them?" Numbers 14:10-12

"...They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator..." Rom. 1:25

“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing." Matt. 23:37

"But concerning Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.” Rom. 10:21

"They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved." 2 Thess. 2:10​

Refusing to believe or exchanging truth in for lies is a choice, Luke. There are hundreds of verses just like these which clearly indicate this is the case. In fact, the word "TRUST" is often employed in scripture, which clearly connotes an idea of choice...in that you choose to place your trust in someone. I could list the dozen of text which speak of putting our trust in the Lord, but I suspect it would meet the same resistance.

 

Actually, I was thinking about Allan saying faith is not being offered in exchange for salvation being followed by Luke’s attempt to exchange choice for faith in the same sense that Allan just finished clarifying wasn’t being offered (as salvation), which I figured was then cheered as a comeback to Allan’s statement when I decided to demonstrate how Luke’s offering a switch anyway could work both ways and meant absolutely nothing logically.

IOWs after Allan specifying the clear difference Luke went right ahead and built a strawman in the sense of offering choice to be salvific (as in having the power to save) and I thought to expose that his fallacious rhetoric didn’t add anything to argument at the same time – unless maybe some thought it also equally added the validity to my (borrowed) argument in which I switched determinism for faith – in which case I was wanting some of them cheers too.

But, it appears Luke didn’t see what I getting at.

So to clarify, for me it was the point I was hitting on but I saw no sense in trying to pin it back to Allan's careful explanation which was stomped on anyway with Luke's "logic". That's why I said I tire of having to break these things down, see I know he would dance around the issue I would try to pin. I decided instead to have some fun by exposing the Luke's reasoning for what it was and watching him deny that instead. Breaks up the day.

And now you have the rest of the story...

 

So... before I deal with these passages, let me get this straight. You believe that faith is a choice, right? You believe that every time in the Bible faith is mentioned it is the result of choice, right?

 

Can we use the word "trust," Luke? The word "faith" has too many variants and often carries some baggage with it. For example, one might speak of the Christian Faith...but that has to do with doctrinal beliefs, not putting our trust in another person (which is what this discussion is about).

Do you trust your wife? Do you trust your friend? If so, is that a choice that you make? If so, how? What practical things do you do to trust your spouse or your friend? This puts our discussion in its proper context, I think. You may disagree, but I think the word 'trust' carries the best connotation for the concept of saving faith (man's response to God's revelation).

 

You dont DO things to trust. You do things as the result of trust. I let my wife go out of town for a week without argument as a RESULT of the fact that I trust her.

When we speak of acts of faith or trust, we mean acts that RESULT from faith or trust.

Faith is something that happens to you.

You don't CHOOSE to believe in gravity. You are PERSUADED that gravity exists. You are not terrified each night that you will be hurled into outer space because you "trust" in gravity. You have FAITH in it. But you never CHOSE to have faith in it. It CAUSED you to believe in it. In fact, you cannot WILL yourself to BE terrified that you will be swept into outer space tonight. In other words, you cannot WILL yourself to STOP trusting it. It has overcome you with faith in itself. You have no choice BUT to trust it. And of course this is because you never had any choice BUT to trust it.

Faith is not a choice- ever.

 

Faith is something that happens to you when you love the truth which is revealed to you.

You are not determined to believe in love. You are PERSUADED or not that God's love exists. You are not terrified each night that you got to be that you will be denied God’s love because you "trust" in God’s loving promise. You have FAITH in it. You choose to have faith in it. He INFLUENCED you to believe in it. In fact, you are RESPONSIBLE to trust in the nature of your Creator's love so that you may receive the promise that keeps you safe. In other words, your RESPONSE WILL be judged in TRUTH. God has overcome all the lies in the world which deny faith in His love can be known in truth.

Faith is always a choice, as is love which knows trust – All God’s influences (PERSUATIONS) are clearly seen and understood whereby no one WILL have an excuse not to RESPOND freely. God knows the heart, His judgment WILL be true in regard to His loving promises upon which a genuine, loving offer of His mercy in grace has been given for all the volitional creatures He miraculously made. This judgment will be just and in truth based on their choices which freely brought them to faith or not according to the truly sufficient influences from the light God put into the world for every man.

 

I agree, that is what I was meaning...I left out the word 'show,' I should have said 'what things do you do to show you trust your wife?'

Is trust something that happens to you? You grow to trust your wife which lead you to allow her to travel over the weekend. What 'happened' to you to make you trust your wife? You got to know her because she revealed herself to you, right? How is that different than with God? He reveals himself to us and we either put our trust in him or we trade the truth in for lies and choose not to trust him...just like with your relationship to your wife. You are over complicating this, IMHO.

 

Allan

Good post Allan. you are careful to be accurate enough to show faith as the instrumentality...not the cause!