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Featured God's CHOSEN are always SAVED

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by atpollard, Oct 26, 2020.

  1. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    People keep telling me that God chooses people for a purpose, but that does not mean that they are saved and offer the Jews that reject Jesus as an example of God's "chosen people" who are not saved. To the core of my being that feels like "HORSE-FEATHERS"! So let's start with the OT and take a close look at the verses on God's chosen:

    The word is Strong's H972: בָּחִיר bâchîyr, baw-kheer'; from H977; select:—choose, chosen one, elect.

    Here are all of the Old Testament verses that contain that word:
    • [2Sa 21:6 NASB] 6 let seven men from his sons be given to us, and we will hang them before the LORD in Gibeah of Saul, the chosen[H972] of the LORD." And the king said, "I will give [them.]"
    • [1Ch 16:13 NASB] 13 O seed of Israel His servant, Sons of Jacob, His chosen[H972] ones![H972]
    • [Psa 89:3 NASB] 3 "I have made a covenant with My chosen;[H972] I have sworn to David My servant,
    • [Psa 105:6 NASB] 6 O seed of Abraham, His servant, O sons of Jacob, His chosen[H972] ones![H972]
    • [Psa 105:43 NASB]43 And He brought forth His people with joy, His chosen[H972] ones[H972] with a joyful shout.
    • [Psa 106:5NASB] 5 That I may see the prosperity of Your chosen[H972] ones,[H972] That I may rejoice in the gladness of Your nation, That I may glory with Your inheritance.
    • [Psa 106:23 NASB] 23 Therefore He said that He would destroy them, Had not Moses His chosen[H972] one stood in the breach before Him, To turn away His wrath from destroying [them.]
    • [Isa 42:1 NASB] 1 "Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen[H972] one [in whom] My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations.
    • [Isa 43:20 NASB] 20 "The beasts of the field will glorify Me, The jackals and the ostriches, Because I have given waters in the wilderness And rivers in the desert, To give drink to My chosen[H972] people.
    • [Isa 45:4 NASB] 4 "For the sake of Jacob My servant, And Israel My chosen[H972] [one,] I have also called you by your name; I have given you a title of honor Though you have not known Me.
    • [Isa 65:9 NASB] 9 "I will bring forth offspring from Jacob, And an heir of My mountains from Judah; Even My chosen[H972] ones[H972] shall inherit it, And My servants will dwell there.
    • [Isa 65:15 NASB] 15 "You will leave your name for a curse to My chosen[H972] ones,[H972] And the Lord GOD will slay you. But My servants will be called by another name.
    • [Isa 65:22 NASB] 22 "They will not build and another inhabit, They will not plant and another eat; For as the lifetime of a tree, [so will be] the days of My people, And My chosen[H972] ones[H972] will wear out the work of their hands.

    Starting with [2 Samuel 21]

    1 Now there was a famine in the days of David for three years, year after year; and David sought the presence of the LORD. And the LORD said, “It is for Saul and his bloody house, because he put the Gibeonites to death.” 2 So the king called the Gibeonites and spoke to them (now the Gibeonites were not of the sons of Israel but of the remnant of the Amorites, and the sons of Israel [fn]made a covenant with them, but Saul had sought to [fn]kill them in his zeal for the sons of Israel and Judah). 3 Thus David said to the Gibeonites, “What should I do for you? And how can I make atonement that you may bless the inheritance of the LORD?” 4 Then the Gibeonites said to him, “We have no concern of silver or gold with Saul or his house, nor is it for us to put any man to death in Israel.” And he said, “I will do for you whatever you say.” 5 So they said to the king, “The man who consumed us and who planned [fn]to exterminate us from remaining within any border of Israel, 6 let seven men from his sons be given to us, and we will [fn]hang them before the LORD in Gibeah of Saul, the chosen of the LORD.” And the king said, “I will give them.

    7 But the king spared Mephibosheth, the son of Jonathan the son of Saul, because of the oath of the LORD which was between them, between David and Saul’s son Jonathan. 8 So the king took the two sons of Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, Armoni and Mephibosheth whom she had borne to Saul, and the five sons of [fn]Merab the daughter of Saul, whom she had borne to Adriel the son of Barzillai the Meholathite. 9 Then he gave them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they [fn]hanged them in the mountain before the LORD, so that the seven of them fell together; and they were put to death in the first days of harvest at the beginning of barley harvest.

    10 And Rizpah the daughter of Aiah took sackcloth and spread it for herself on the rock, from the beginning of harvest until [fn]it rained on them from the sky; and she [fn]allowed neither the birds of the sky to rest on them by day nor the beasts of the field by night. 11 When it was told David what Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, the concubine of Saul, had done, 12 then David went and took the bones of Saul and the bones of Jonathan his son from the men of Jabesh-gilead, who had stolen them from the open square of Beth-shan, where the Philistines had hanged them on the day the Philistines struck down Saul in Gilboa. 13 He brought up the bones of Saul and the bones of Jonathan his son from there, and they gathered the bones of those who had been [fn]hanged. 14 They buried the bones of Saul and Jonathan his son in the country of Benjamin in Zela, in the grave of Kish his father; thus they did all that the king commanded, and after that God was moved by prayer for the land. [NASB]​

    This first one is one of the more difficult texts, because Saul is one of the more complex relationships in the Bible. The KJV words it "Saul, whom the LORD did choose" which says the same thing. I would call your attention to WHO is making this claim (and who is not making this claim). God is not claiming Saul as His chosen, but these non-Israelites are claiming Saul was chosen by God. I am always careful not to put words in God's mouth that God did not say.

    So why was Saul made king? It was not God's wish or Samuel's choice. God gave the stubborn people what they wanted as a punishment. The expression "give 'em enough rope to hang themselves" comes to mind. However, even in punishing the people with a king, God withheld no blessing from King Saul at the start of his reign. So God was gracious enough to even bless the PEOPLE'S CHOICE! However nobody ever claimed that God is under any obligation to save OUR chosen. I am a believer that God saves HIS chosen. Saul was not God's chosen, David was.

    Since God did not choose Saul, 2 Samuel 21 does not prove that God "chooses for a purpose but not for salvation".
     
  2. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    1 Chronicles 16 contains a Psalm of Thanksgiving containing the word "chosen":

    8 Oh give thanks to the LORD, call upon His name;
    Make known His deeds among the peoples.
    9 Sing to Him, sing praises to Him;
    [fn]Speak of all His [fn]wonders.
    10 [fn]Glory in His holy name;
    Let the heart of those who seek the LORD be glad.
    11 Seek the LORD and His strength;
    Seek His face continually.
    12 Remember His wonderful deeds which He has done,
    His marvels and the judgments from His mouth,
    13 O seed of Israel His servant,
    Sons of Jacob, His chosen ones!

    14 He is the LORD our God;
    His judgments are in all the earth.
    15 Remember His covenant forever,
    The word which He commanded to a thousand generations,​

    Young's Literal Translation reads "O seed of Israel, His servant, O sons of Jacob, His chosen ones!" placing the verse as four clauses all representing the same group. Those who are the "seed of Israel" and "His (God's) servants" and "sons of Jacob" and "His (God's) chosen ones". The rest of the Psalm supports that God's chosen ones are also God's faithful servants (saved in NT parlance). Note the rest of the attributes of "God's chosen" ...
    • v.8 give thanks; call on His name
    • v.9 sing praise to God
    • v.10 glory in God's name; glad heart
    • v.11 seek God continuously
    • v.12 remember God's deeds
    • v.14 the LORD our God
    • v.15 remember covenant & words God commanded
    This does not describe a people chosen for a purpose but not saved. This described people whose heart belongs to the LORD.
    So 1 Chronicles 16 does not prove that God "chooses for a purpose but not for salvation", rather it claims that "His chosen ones" have a heart on fire for God.
     
  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    When anyone posts about a saved person not being saved, they declare openly they have completely defective views of soteriology.
    Those who hate the doctrines of election and predestination work overtime to explain away the complete blessing these two areas of study offer as a blessing and comfort to the churches.
     
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  4. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Saved not being saved? And predestination is a wonderful thing . The Adoption is what we are looking forward to .
     
  5. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Isa. 42:1; Acts 9:15; Rom. 11:28
    1¶Behold my servant , whom I uphold; mine elect , in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall ( purpose ) bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

    15¶But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, ( purpose/ calling ) to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

    28¶As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election , ( purpose )they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
     
  6. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Why do you need the Greek to explain ' choose ' ?
     
  7. Derf B

    Derf B Active Member

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    Maybe you chose the wrong "chosen", since it is pretty late in the choosing (1st use not until Saul). Here's another possibility:
    בָּחַר bâchar, baw-khar'; a primitive root; properly, to try, i.e. (by implication) select:—acceptable, appoint, choose (choice), excellent, join, be rather, require.
    The Lord chose Saul using this word, and it is assured by the anointing to a purpose (captain over His inheritance), by God being "with him", and God giving him another heart:
    [1Sa 10:1 KJV] Then Samuel took a vial of oil, and poured [it] upon his head, and kissed him, and said, [Is it] not because the LORD hath anointed thee [to be] captain over his inheritance?
    [1Sa 10:7 KJV] And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, [that] thou do as occasion serve thee; for God [is] with thee.
    [1Sa 10:9 KJV] And it was [so], that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day.
    [1Sa 10:24 KJV] And Samuel said to all the people, See ye him whom the LORD hath chosen, that [there is] none like him among all the people? And all the people shouted, and said, God save the king.

    Was Saul considered "saved"? I'm not sure. He didn't act like it much of the time. But is that the right measure of the saved?

    Other uses of the word (closer to the choosing of the people of Israel):
    [Deu 4:37 KJV] And because he loved thy fathers, therefore he chose[H977] their seed after them, and brought thee out in his sight with his mighty power out of Egypt;

    [Deu 14:2 KJV] For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen[H977] thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that [are] upon the earth.

    Were they all saved? doesn't seem like it. God's purpose, though, was likely manifold. He wanted a people for Himself, one that would be a light to the rest of the world, as well as a people through which to bring the Messiah, who would also be a light to the rest of the world.
     
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  8. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Just requesting clarification, since this topic was focusing on the Jews as God's chosen (and was therefore presenting OT verses containing the Hebrew word for "chosen") ... do you view Acts 9:5 and Romans 11:28 as being verses written to Jews and not about gentiles?

    I just want to know how to interpret your response before I can reply to it.
     
  9. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    My point was its never to salvation. Mostly ' Elect ' refers to the Jews .
     
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  10. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Umm ... that was Hebrew (the language of the OT) ... and I used the specific Hebrew word to identify every verse that contained that word so I could study scripture by comparing "apples" to "apples". If we compare different Hebrew words that have similar translations in English, we may loose some of the original meaning. If we ignore other instances where the Bible used the same word in the original language because a translator chose a different English word, we are again not trusting ALL OF SCRIPTURE to interpret itself.

    A second reason is the definition of the Hebrew word "בָּחִיר" is "select:—choose, chosen one, elect."
    The definition of the English word "choose" is

    transitive verb
    • 1a : to select freely and after consideration
      • choose a career
    • b : to decide on especially by vote : elect
      • chose her as captain
    • 2a : to have a preference for
      • choose one car over another
    • b : decide
      • chose to go by train

    intransitive verb
    • 1 : to make a selection
      • finding it hard to choose
    • 2 : to take an alternative —used after cannot and usually followed by but
      • when earth is so kind, men cannot choose but be happy— J. A. Froude

    The Hebrew and English words do not have exactly the same meaning, so it is helpful to revisit what the author meant by the word in the original language.
     
  11. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Thank you.
    Within the context of how it is being used ... quite frankly, against NT scripture in my opinion ... I need an OT choosing that is equivalent to being "the elect" [G1588 = ἐκλεκτός ] in the NT. You may be right about another Hebrew "chosen", but the ultimate question is to find an OT counterpart to [G1588]. I suppose the LXX translation of the OT might help identify which specific word is best.
     
  12. Derf B

    Derf B Active Member

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    It's worth a try.
     
  13. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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  14. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Thayer’s Greek Lexicon offered this on the definition of G1588 most applicable to a discussion of the NT Saints:


    1. chosen by God, and
    a. to obtain salvation through Christ (see ἐκλέγω); hence, Christians are called οἱ ἐκλεκτοί τοῦ Θεοῦ, the chosen or elect of God (cf. Winer's Grammar, 35 (34); 234 (219)), (יְהוָה בְּחִירֵי, said of pious Israelites Isaiah 65:9, 15, 23; Psalm 104:43 (Ps. 105:43), cf. Wis. 4:15): Luke 18:7; Romans 8:33; Colossians 3:12; Titus 1:1; without the genitive Θεοῦ, Matthew 24:22, 24; Mark 13:20, 22; 1 Peter 1:1; with the addition of τοῦ Χριστοῦ, as the genitive of possessor, Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:27 (T Tr omit the genitive); κλητοί καί ἐκλεκτοί καί πιστοί, Revelation 17:14; γένος ἐκλεκτόν, 1 Peter 2:9 (from Isaiah 43:20, cf. Additions to Esther 8:40 [Esther 8:368:12t] (Esth. 6:17, p. 64, Fritzsche edition)); ἐκλεκτοί, those who have become true partakers of the Christian salvation are contrasted with κλητοί, those who have been invited but who have not shown themselves fitted to obtain it (others regard the 'called' and the 'chosen' here as alike partakers of salvation, but the latter as the 'choice ones' (see 2 below), distinguished above the former; cf. James Morison or Meyer at the passage), Matthew 20:16 (here T WHomit; Tr brackets the clause); Matt 22:14; finally, those are called ἐκλεκτοί who are destined for salvation but have not yet been brought to it, 2 Timothy 2:10 (but cf.​
     
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  15. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    God renames Jacob as Israel, he is the chosen of God, before Jacob was born to obtain the birthright of the firstborn, the blessing and the Life with God, so then the good promises of God belong to him and not to Esau. All that was decided by God before either one was born, before either one had done anything good or bad.

    Paul's country men here which Paul laments over, were Israelites, but they were not of Jacob according to the promises of God, so then not of Israel, who is Jacob renamed. And they were not to inherit eternal life. All that decided before they were born.
    Romans 9
    9 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

    6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

    10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

    And this same truth of God showing mercy to some and not to others is God's own choice, not dependent on us.

    14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy

    And this mercy extends to some gentiles also, NOT ALL GENTILES, same as NOT ALL ISRAELITES
    as just because your an Israelite does not make you OF JACOB ISRAEL, nope, you must be called to that glory, some from the Jews and some from the gentiles, that calling is how God shows His choosing for salvation, because only THEY are prepared for GLORY, and the others prepared for destruction.


    22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

    If you dont like that, your argument is not with me, it is with God.
     
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  16. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Since my close personal friend, Barry, wants to talk about Isaiah 42:1, I will skip over the Psalms and examine "chosen" [H972] in Isaiah 42 next.

    Isaiah 42:1-5 [NASB]
    1 “Behold, My Servant, whom I [fn]uphold;
    My chosen one in whom My soul delights.
    I have put My Spirit upon Him;
    He will bring forth justice to the [fn]nations.

    2 “He will not cry out or raise His voice,
    Nor make His voice heard in the street.
    3 “A bruised reed He will not break
    And a dimly burning wick He will not extinguish;
    He will faithfully bring forth justice.
    4 “He will not be disheartened or crushed
    Until He has established justice in the earth;
    And the coastlands will wait expectantly for His [fn]law.”​

    Fortunately, we don't need to guess about who this servant is since Matthew already revealed that particular truth in his Gospel:

    [Matthew 12:15-21 KJV] 15 But when Jesus knew [it], he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all; 16 And charged them that they should not make him known: 17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, 18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. 19 He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. 20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. 21 And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.​

    Isaiah 1 is not speaking about "just any" servant chosen by God, it is speaking of The Servant, God's CHOSEN ONE ... our Lord Jesus, the Christ. To argue that Jesus (God incarnate) is an example of a "chosen one" that was picked for a purpose but need not have been saved is nonsensical. True, Jesus did not NEED saving, but that hardly proves God's "chosen/elect" includes both saints and sinners.
     
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  17. Derf B

    Derf B Active Member

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    Maybe it wasn’t a fail at all. Make sure you’re not putting your own meaning into the words.

    But keep studying.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  18. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    God's CHOSEN are always SAVED
    Wrong the Jews are chosen yet not all are saved.
    MB
     
  19. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for your opinion.
    Is there any verse of scripture where God claims unsaved Jews are "His chosen"?
     
  20. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    It seems you haven't read Romans 9...
     
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