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God's Effectual Call?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Bible-boy, Oct 5, 2005.

  1. Bible-boy

    Bible-boy Active Member

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    Originally posted by El_Guero:
    I am not trying to obfuscate your position. I have repeatedly asked you to provide your own definition of what you mean when you use the term(s) “call,” “called,” “calling,” or the phrase “God’s effectual call on your life to ministry.” However, you have simply refused to honor my requests. Likewise, I have repeatedly asked you to provide Scripture without eisegesis that supports your definition (whatever it is) of those terms and that phrase. You have yet to honor this request. You have used passages of Scripture that refer to the Great Commission, and that use words such as “appoint,” “send,” and “gave” in an attempt to say that such words can be used interchangeably with “call,” “called,” “calling,” and/or “God’s effectual call on your life to ministry.” Therefore, if any obfuscation, or equivocation, has taken place it would seem to have come from your side of the argument.

    Originally posted by El_Guero:
    No the converse of fact is fiction. Converse (in the way you are attempting to use it) means: 1. Something that has been reversed; an opposite; 2. Logic—A proposition obtained by conversion. This is an If/Then type principle (if Y is true, then X must also be true). In this case what you are saying is that if it is true that God did not send false prophets, then it must also be true that He did send true prophets. One must be careful using an If/Then line of argumentation because one can easily slip into the fallacy of Converse Accident where we either carelessly or by design presume that what is true of a particular case is true of the great run of cases (Copi and Cohen, Introduction to Logic, 187). The problem here arises from the fact that there may well be other possibilities that are true about the converse of the “If” half of the argument.

    Again you have charged that I have fallen into fallacy during the presentation of my arguments. However, you have once again utterly failed to quote where I have allegedly done so and to demonstrate the specific fallacy from published logic sources. If you will not or can not do so I expect you to stop throwing out such groundless charges.

    Originally posted by El_Guero:
    Yes. I agree that an implication of what God was saying through Jeremiah in the passage that you referenced is that God did not send false prophets to Israel and that He did send His true prophets to them. Perhaps a better way to express this would have been to say:
    This is a very specific circumstance (or case) and we should be careful not to presume that what is true about this particular case is true regarding all those who would serve in ministry today because the circumstances may have changed. This is why I questioned you asking how the context of an O.T. passage dealing with God’s anger at Israel and the false prophets they followed (a very specific circumstance) can be interpreted to mean that “God effectually calls” all who serve in ministry today? Disregarding the context and the very specific circumstance found therein becomes particularly problematic when we see that the N.T. does not give us any requirement that those who serve in ministry should have such a “call” (as you are using the term).

    Additionally, if we were to accept your use of that passage in support of your argument we would also be forced to acknowledge a clear associated corollary—meaning that the O.T. office of prophet and the N.T. office of pastor must be identical. If that were the case then we should expect God to communicate (reveal His will) for us through our N.T. pastors in the exact same manner that He did through the O.T. prophets. Hence, our N.T. pastors should be hearing the audible voice of God and/or experiencing revelatory visions from God. This would enable them to use the prophetic phrase, “Thus says the LORD…” when they speak to us. However, this does not happen today because God’s word is complete (a change from the original circumstance recorded in the book of Jeremiah). The canon is closed. There is no continual progressive revelation (unless we are to hold to the teachings of Mormonism). The Bible is God’s completely revealed moral will for our lives. God speaks to us through His written word which is proclaimed (i.e. explained and taught) by His people, all Christians, not just by a select group of “called” ministers.

    Finally, if we ignore the context of a passage, or passages, of Scripture we can make the Bible say just about anything we want. If we ignore the context we can even make the case that the Bible supports suicide. The ridiculous argument would go something like this, “You know the Bible says that Judas hung himself and it also says, ‘Go thou and do likewise’ so suicide must be biblical.” Clearly, we must always rely on the context of a passage of Scripture to guide and ground our interpretation or we can easily drift into serious error.

    [ October 26, 2005, 01:46 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]
     
  2. Bible-boy

    Bible-boy Active Member

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    Originally posted by El_Guero:
    You are equivocating the terms “send” and “call” again. Likewise, please note that requirements for those who serve in ministry given 1 Timothy 3; Titus 1, and 1 Peter 5 do not even hint at the idea that a minister must be “sent” or “called” (in the exact same sense that you are using these terms).

    Originally posted by El_Guero:
    Please don’t put words in my mouth. I never said any such thing. All I did was to point out that John Piper is opposed to your use of the terms “profession” and “professional” when referring to the pastorate.
     
  3. Bible-boy

    Bible-boy Active Member

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    Originally posted by El_Guero:
    So you think I am lying to you? :( It came up in Systematic Theology because someone asked about it. It came up in Apologetics because we were discussing how many Christians “think” they know what the Bible says because they know a tradition that they have been told is biblical; however, the Bible really never says any such thing. It came up in Hermeneutics because we were discussing how we can not make the Bible say what it never said in its original text. It came up in Introduction to Missions because our textbook referenced Friesen’s book regarding the subject as it pertains to the “missionary call”. It came up in Church History as a side-bar discussion because we were talking about how and when ordination (as we use the term today) came about. It came up in Baptist History because I asked about it.

    Originally posted by El_Guero:
    Okay, so some of my professors and I disagree with you and some of your professors. Do you want me to now say that I bet my dad can beat up your dad like a couple of six year olds on the school playground? Let’s stick to the issue. What does the Bible say (and not say) regarding the subject?

    [ October 26, 2005, 02:10 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]
     
  4. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    I preached my father's funeral.

    So, if you wish to be so illogical and challenge me to a dual. Remember that I get to choose the weapons.
     
  5. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    Back to God calling His leaders and His not calling the others.

    A. The Bible was (& is) clear that God calls His men to positions of leadership.

    B. There has been no evidence that I can find (scripturally) to change that.

    C. You choose to go to men to redefine what God stated clearly.

    D. I went to men as well. Piper, Spurgeon, Graham, Calvin, Luther, Wesley.


    AFTER continued study of both the Biblical texts and the scholarship of the great scholars before me and scholars living now:

    I can find NO REASONABLE support for your position.

    THEREFORE: I am amazed that you can find SBC PROFESSORS that would support your claims.

    Reference a scholarly publication so that I can make certain that you are not obfuscating their work as you have my words. Then I shall address them (not you), and I shall ask them what led them to believe that God has not called them to ministry.
     
  6. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    Now, before you get ignorant enough to:

    ... challenge me to a dual (a second time);

    ... Or misrepresent what I have exegeted by calling it eisegesis (again and again);

    ... Or, misrepresenting my hermeneutical approach to this subject as faulty. (I do thank you that you would place the scholarship of no less a "prince of preachers" than Spurgeon into this category with me)

    ... Ask your self: "How is it that I, "Bible-Boy", no longer have a felt call from God for me, "Bible-Boy", to go into ministry?"

    Personally, I fear the wrath of Almighty God too much to go into His ministry if He did not call me. But, I must guess that if you can loose a call from God, you might not fear Him as much as I do fear Him. (I guess, because you have not explained how you lost your calling).
     
  7. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    In the Bible did Jesus ever once call a person to be a pastor? I can think of none. But he called many to "Come follow Me." Did God ever call anyone to pastor? I can think of no examples in scripture. Did he say to Paul, "I want you to pastor"?

    My question El Guero is this: Is the man in I Timothy 3:1 called? I would say not. Many, especially younger men or boys do desire to be pastors but would not meet the necessary qualifications and do not have the skills and gifts needed to pastor. Does that negate their desire? When God "calls" would he not also give the gifts and desires at that same point in time? In the Bible when Jesus called people to come follow Him he meant immediately. In a practical sense why do 1/2 of those who are "called" and go to seminary never finish and even less pastor. After about five years only about 20 of those who graduate do not pastor and after 10 years it is almost zero. Many churches are very hard on pastors and kill their desire they have to help others grow. In a real practical sense "calling" is almost zero after ten years in the SBC. The average tenure in a pastorate is about two years in the SBC and in other Baptist denominations it is more like 9-10 years in each church. Is the calling different in the SBC than many other Baptist denominations.

    Is a man called to pastor if he has never personally made any disciples before pastoring? The biblical mandate for every Christian is to make disciples. But the fact is that the vast majority of pastors in churches across America have never made any disciples and does not know how. I went to seminary with loads of them who had never made one disciple. Some had never even shared their faith.

    Jesus called men to follow Him. In following him he does give each person desires. Those desires vary considerably and may change over the course of a lifetime. Each person is called to make disciples. If a man has not proven himself by making disciples in the smaller arena of his own influences then he does not qualify to lead a church. A man should never be given the reponsibility of leading a church to make disciples when he hasn't a clue how to make disciples. That is much like giving a person a college class to teach when he has not gone to college.
     
  8. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    gb

    You should say not.

    Desiring to be president of the USofA is a 'good thing'. Something being desirable, does not have ANY BEARING upon reality.

    God 'calls' men to ministry. Jesus called His disciples.

    You act like serving God is a "J" "O" "B".
     
  9. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    Further, when Christ called His LEADERSHIP, He CALLED them to be shepherds of HIS sheep ... That is what the word PASTOR means.

    If you are not called to pastor His sheep, then don't. BE a GREAT lay man. But, be true to God and His calling in your life.
     
  10. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Did you ever read 1 Timothy 3:1 where it does use the word "desires" and "aspires"? I did not write that verse and use that language.

    I Tim 3:1, "It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do."

    Let's get down to what a real pastor is and does.

    How can you call what most church leaders do today as pastoring? It is not pastoring. Much of it is baby sitting and hoping people will follow. Jesus never approached people that way. He expected them to follow Him. He trained his disciples. You cannot make disciples without pastoring them intensely. How many churches can you name who make dsiciples and train their people to make more disciples?

    Too often pastoring as seen as a fourth century invention. Too many pastors stand up to preach on Sunday and expect people to walk with God and be obedient when they themselves are not being obedient by making disciples. How many of those listening are actually being held accountable by someone else? Making disciples involves investing our lives in the lives of others ensuring every step of the way they continue to know God and follow Him.

    The church in America is dying while we discuss "called." What really is happening is those with passion for others are making disciples on college campuses, in the prisons and military bases while the church is being talked sweetly to sleep by many of its pastors and congregations who really do not want someone on fire and sold out for Christ who will lead them like Jesus led his disciples.

    Three years ago I started meeting with a group of 20 people I had met within six months after moving to the area. Not one of those people were doing anything in a church. Most of them had been believers about 2 to 6 years with the exception of one. At the end of two years everyone of them were leading others in Bible studies and other ministries they had started. That is pastoring.

    I don't believe you ever answered my question about whether or not the man who preached the sermons at http://www.bibleteacher.org/Dm118_8.htm
    was called.

    You never did answer the question I asked, "Is a man called to pastor if he has never personally made any disciples before pastoring?"
     
  11. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    If a "calling" is truly from God then it has a theological and practical component.

    If you cannot give both then you have not worked out your theology.

    You continue to claim that "calling" as a pastor is from God. Jesus never pastored a church and changed the world. So was He not called?

    I would contend that "calling" as a pastor does not exist in scripture. Pastoring is a passion. It is not a calling. It is making disciples not just preaching on Sunday and leading services. It requires certain qualifications that must be met to lead a church. The first one is making disciples.

    For a man claiming to be called is to lay hands on himself. But to have a passion to reach others, God has laid hands on him and others know it. The Bible says we are not to lay hands on a man lightly. A man can claim to be called and have no disciples. But he has no passion. I would contend he should never be a pastor until he makes at least one disciple. If we give him the position of pastor and he has not made any disciples then we are approving of an unproven man.

    Whether or not I have a church building I call the church I pastor, has no bearing on my passion for reaching people. Being in a building has nothing to do with pastoring people. Jesus pastored people and never pastored a church.
     
  12. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    gb,

    You continue to argue your defense from the words of men. God clearly stated that He calls men to pastor and to shepherd His flock.

    Ironically, every man that I can find that is called by God into God's ministry says roughly the same thing, "If you are not called into ministry, leave!"
     
  13. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    I asked you to give me one verse to support you idea. You have not.

    I asked you another question in one of my last posts which you failed to answer. "Did you ever read 1 Timothy 3:1 where it does use the word "desires" and "aspires"? I did not write that verse and use that language."

    I Tim 3:1, "It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do."

    You do not seem to have enough of a handle on the task to be able to discuss the words used in 1 Tim 3:1. Give me an intelligent discussion of what you see and find in I Tim 3:1.



    gb,

    You continue to argue your defense from the words of men. God clearly stated that He calls men to pastor and to shepherd His flock.

    Ironically, every man that I can find that is called by God into God's ministry says roughly the same thing, "If you are not called into ministry, leave!"


    What did you just write? The words of men?

    It is ironic that you would contradict God’s word with such a statement. Why would you make such as claim and tell a man to leave the ministry. Every Christian in obedience to God is called to be making disciples. That is ministry! That is not the work of one, but of every Christian. Just because someone preaches on Sunday and works inside of a church building does not mean he is a true pastor. There are non-believers and passionless men doing that much. If one is not making disciples he is disobedient and that is not ministry.

    I am asking you to just give me one verse where the word “called” is used to back up your claim of pastors being called and how that is a different calling than where God calls Christians to be obedient.
     
  14. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    gb

    Ordained men of God, that have studied God's Word have come to the same conclusion that I have. Many Ordained men of God have done so. God's Word is clear: "GOD and only God calls men into ministry. All others are FALSE shepherds of God's sheep."

    I presented God's Words in support of His theology some time back. I was attacked upon the basis of a supposed bad exegesis and hermeneutic. I was attacked by those that could only find support from men.

    I then went to my Pastors & my professors. The consensus has been unanimous: God calls and all others should leave His ministry.

    The more you write through the words of men, the more God and His call of Jeremiah seems so certain. God wrote through Jeremiah concerning the shepherds (pastors) of His people and His prophets, and He said: "I did not send these prophets". God is clear. His converse is clear. He sends some men. Others claim to represent God.
     
  15. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    You claim that you are not sent from God.

    As I have continued to do so, I implore you to seek out God, and those men that He has called, for guidance.

    The ground you are on is a very slippery slope ...
     
  16. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    gb

    You are foolish enough to ask me if I have read God's Word.

    Get a life.

    Further, Being a christian millionaire is a noble thing and is worthy of being desired. But, a Christian millionaire should have these characteristics: A; B; & C.

    Praising the ministry DOES NOT MEAN THAT PAUL DENIGRATED THE CALLING into a man made office.
     
  17. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    BUMP if you want the verses. They were given.

    You have no verses to support a professional ministry nor to support professional ministers.

    Spurgeon would not have let you into his college.
     
  18. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    You have the time to meditate upon the words of a man, but not upon God's Word.

    Why do you think that your bad example should inspire me to take time away from Bible study and study a man?

    Study God and His Word. Meditate upon God day and night, and maybe you will learn how to inspire a man of God.

    Inspiring people that would also follow false shepherds is not the inspiration that God has called me to emulate.
     
  19. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Again I ask you the same question and you continue to skirt the idea. It is hard to have an intelligent discussion with such generalities. If you really don't want to be challenged just let me know.

    So again I post what I had earlier.

    I asked you to give me one verse to support you idea. You have not.

    I asked you another question in one of my last posts which you failed to answer. "Did you ever read 1 Timothy 3:1 where it does use the word "desires" and "aspires"? I did not write that verse and use that language."

    I Tim 3:1, "It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do."

    You do not seem to have enough of a handle on the task to be able to discuss the words used in 1 Tim 3:1. Give me an intelligent discussion of what you see and find in I Tim 3:1.


    In the last few posts you have not given me one verse to support your position. So again for a number I times I ask you to comment on your interpretation of 1 Tim. 3:1.
     
  20. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Why would I care about Spurgeon? He is dead. Spurgeon is not my God. Jesus is my Lord.

    To answer your question I Timothy 3:1 and Acts 20.
     
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