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Featured GOD'S OPERATIONS OF GRACE BUT NO OFFERS OF HIS GRACE

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Iconoclast, Apr 16, 2022.

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  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Recently a PDF file by this title was sent my way. Let's take a fresh look at this work.

    To which are added two brief treatises. The One about Invitation, and the other about Exhortation of Sinners to come to Christ; both examined and consistently stated with the Glory of Free Grace, to rectify some Common and Prevailing Mistakes in Ministers, who now with Time, are running in the Present Generation. By Joseph Hussey A Poor Despised Servant of JESUS CHRIST, and Pastor of the Congregational Church of Christ at Cambridge. Ezekiel 4:1-2. 1707

    Supralapsarian Press

    https://mountzionpbc.org/Duty Faith/hussey-gods-operation-of-grace-mastere-MZ.pdf
    There have been many shifts in the sands of theological issues and terminology since the days of Fuller, Rushton, and Joseph Hussey, but the basic issues remain the same. In his Defence of Particular Redemption,
    William Rushton expressed the truth, that to be clear on the doctrine of election and the atonement, is more important than preaching the Gospel;
    that is, we must first understand the foundation principles of the good news;-
    then may follow the proper manner of presenting that good news.

    The erroneous and unscriptural teaching of a universal atonement by the sacrifice of Christ, inevitably leads to the equally erroneous proclamation of a universal offer of Salvation.


    The vital issue, then, still remains, namely, Did Christ make atonement for the sins of the human race? Is the good news or Gospel, to be preached as a means to secure eternally the subjects of that universal atonement?

    Was the utility or purpose of the Gospel to “save” all the lost, or to “call out” or convert only the redeemed elect?

    The so-called Free-offer system was another by-product of the doctrine of universal atonement.

    It was the manner of preaching adapted by those men who not only believed that Christ died to save all men, but also that men by nature, possess a Free-will ability whereby they may “accept or reject” the proposed “offer” of the good news.

    The burden of Mr. Hussey's arguments is primarily to refute the unscriptural and Christ-dishonouring system of “Free offers” indiscriminately addressed to all alike. It is truly a blasphemous presentation of Christ's “finished” redemption, offered to all who will make it Effectual by their acceptance of the proposed offer!


    The reader will note that Mr. Hussey's arguments against Free-offers of Grace, are well undergirded with the scriptures of truth, especially those touching depravity of the human will, election, Effectual calling, and the work of the Holy Spirit in regeneration or the new birth.

    The author pauses to ask this pointed question: “Therefore why do you not look to bring the form of preaching to God's work, than to bring down the power of God's work to your form of preaching?”

    We must face the fact that now in our times, nearly all of “Christendom” is no longer concerned with the foundation doctrine of election and particular redemption.

    The chief concern is for the best operational “methods” to bring the most members into their system. The chief motive in the religious world is not to honour and exalt Christ and His Grace, but rather to advance a religious organization, often called “Christian Evangelism.”

    [QUOTE]It is to you, the following pages are again presented, for your confirmation and establishment in the truth.[/QUOTE]


    Having been written nearly three hundred years ago, you will find the style of expression somewhat different than now used. This, however, in many respects is refreshing and to the point. Once the reader gets the author's trend of thought and expression, he will be well rewarded. If it be God's will, may it please Him to use it in stirring up some “pure minds” on this important matter. W. J. Berry, Sr., North Carolina, 1973. {From the abridged 1973 Edition, Primitive Publications, USA.} The Editor to the Reader I The Sovereign love of God the Father, the free gift of
     
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  2. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    I find this a little troubling…


    “William Rushton expressed the truth, that to be clear on the doctrine of election and the atonement, is more important than preaching the Gospel; that is, we must first understand the foundation principles of the good news; -then may follow the proper manner of presenting that good news.”

    I agree that a proper understanding of election and atonement gives us the biblical view of the gospel, but I do not think anything usurps the importance of the preaching of the gospel.
     
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  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    I suspect this PDF file will offer many solid portions of scripture. I look forward to those portions of scripture offered.
    I have not read this yet, but did glance at a few pages, and thought I saw several portions concerning the Gospel of the Kingdom that will be of help to me concerning that.
    I believe that the contention will be on how those believing this MAKE APPLICATION of what is offered and how to carry out the Great Commission and "the Means of Grace God uses."
    I respect the posts and thoughts of the posters who offer this, so I intend to take a fresh look as if I had never examined these ideas before.
    I want to understand why he says what he says before I would investigate if and when he goes beyond what is offered.
     
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  4. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Yes SG...this might be quite a challenge.
    We need to see how He goes about establishing his scriptural base line.

    Then once we see it, how does he apply it. From the table of contents it looks as if he intends to take on all comers and address all manner of objects....so this could be quite involved.

    I like anyone who is willing to stand in the marketplace and make a scriptural stand.
    I am hoping that he has a solid foundation.
    How he applies it will provide the verdict one way or another.

    If he is able to sustain his case then it would be offered as correction to infralapsarian persons.

    if he cannot maintain it then he will prove to hinder the actual work of the gospel.

    People who struggle with election and predestination will not be able to fully enter in to the discussion as they will be tooo busy struggling with their emotional reactions against truth to begin with
     
    #4 Iconoclast, Apr 16, 2022
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2022
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  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Here he takes an opening shot at mainstream Calvinism;

    The Editor to the Reader I

    The Sovereign love of God the Father, the free gift of his Son Jesus Christ, the saving, irresistible and abiding operations of the Holy Ghost, together with the revelation and application of them to the mind, and consciences of his own elect, and none other, irrespective of any worth, worthiness, state, or condition whatever, are the truths testified and maintained in this work,
    in opposition to pretended Calvinistic preachers of the Gospel; who in his, as well as our days, are the greatest opposers of the cross of Christ, for instead of being content to stand in the counsel of God, and point sinners to Christ; as John did, with “behold the Lamb of God,” or, as the Apostles did, showing the way of Salvation;

    or as the Spouse did, describing Christ's beauty, till someone falls in love with him, leaving our Lord to make his own choice. They, under pretense of extra-liberality, go a step, one awful step further, than the Counsel of God,

    by offering Christ to all their hearers; and very often, that none may mistake their presumptuous generosity, will then intently urge upon their hearers, one in all, to accept, and not to miss, but at that very moment to accept their offer of Christ.
     
  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Such conduct, such offers, such proffers, may very well agree with the traders of Rome, who have Christs in wood and in stone, hanging at the girdle of every popish priest. Such Christs as these, such preachers may offer and proffer to all men; such men may and can accept such Christs, and may as easily part from them again, when they have got them. A popish Christ is a Christ of wood, a false preacher's Christ is a Christ of words; but Christ Jesus, our Lord, whom Paul preached, and Mr. Hussey holds forth in this book, is the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, and the Prince of Peace; who fills Heaven and Earth, by whom all things exist and consist, by whom these very beings are held in being, that vainly and presumptuously pretend to offer and proffer him one to another. The Christ of God, who is equal with the Father, seated on the throne of his Glory, holding all power, dominion, and might; made higher than the heavens, to whom all principalities and powers are subject; and at whose presence both the earth and the heavens shall flee away, is neither to be offered, proffered, lent, borrowed, bought, sold or given of men. He is the gift of the Father, to as many as the Father has ordained to eternal life, and none other. This Christ, this gift of the Father, is revealed and applied to the heirs of Salvation by the Holy Ghost, when, where, and how he pleases; not when, where, and how men please. And the man that attempts to supersede such plan of operations in any respect sets himself against the Counsel of God, the Covenant of God, the Work of God; and, as far as he goes, sins against the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of God.
     
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  7. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Here he takes an opening shot at mainstream Calvinism;

    The Editor to the Reader I

    The Sovereign love of God the Father, the free gift of his Son Jesus Christ, the saving, irresistible and abiding operations of the Holy Ghost, together with the revelation and application of them to the mind, and consciences of his own elect, and none other, irrespective of any worth, worthiness, state, or condition whatever, are the truths testified and maintained in this work,
    in opposition to pretended Calvinistic preachers of the Gospel; who in his, as well as our days, are the greatest opposers of the cross of Christ, for instead of being content to stand in the counsel of God, and point sinners to Christ; as John did, with “behold the Lamb of God,” or, as the Apostles did, showing the way of Salvation;

    or as the Spouse did, describing Christ's beauty, till someone falls in love with him, leaving our Lord to make his own choice. They, under pretense of extra-liberality, go a step, one awful step further, than the Counsel of God,

    by offering Christ to all their hearers; and very often, that none may mistake their presumptuous generosity, will then intently urge upon their hearers, one in all, to accept, and not to miss, but at that very moment to accept their offer of Christ.
     
  8. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    It is not to whom men will offer Christ; but to whom the Father will give him,

    even to such as he hath ordained to eternal life; to such, and such only he gives power to believe on him, to receive him, and become the sons of God, even to as many as believe on his name. These gifts and callings of God, the Holy Ghost reveals, while Christ is preached, or pointed to; not while he is offered, from one sinner to another. The Holy Ghost countenances no such conduct. When he, the Spirit of truth, shall come, he shall guide, not offer, you into all truth, for he shall take of the things that are Christ's, and show them unto you. The Holy Spirit does not teach men to offer, but to preach, or expound Christ;

    it is wickedness in any man as a fallen finite creature, to attempt to offer Christ who is infinite in Majesty, Glory, and Holiness, indiscriminately to all men,


    who are by nature rebels, in chains of guilt, having no desire towards him, and seeing no beauty in him. But it would not be wickedness to describe or preach Christ, though infinite in majesty and glory, to such rebels; neither would it be wickedness to direct enemies in chains, to petition Christ, though he be infinite in Majesty, and glorious in Holiness; because he says of such, that they shall come after me in chains, and with weeping and bitter supplications, will I lead them.

    These and other glorious truths Mr. Hussey not only preached, but very ably defended; against whom? The avowed enemies of Christ? No, these were not half so dangerous in his opinion as they who pretended to hold a form of sound words, calling themselves Calvinists,

    when, at the same time, they privately hated the doctrines he held, and by a kind of underground way of proceeding in their matter of preaching, kept back the Sovereignty of Christ, and held him forth in a conditional way of offers and proffers; so artfully, if possible, as to overturn with one hand, what they pretended to build with the other.

    The glorious truths, contended for by Mr. Hussey, having a direct tendency to discover the hypocrisy of pretended half-hearted preachers of Free and Sovereign Grace. The only way left them to escape detection, was by calling him an Antinomian, and by warning people against reading or hearing him; so, by blinding their eyes, and prejudicing their minds, till they can neither see the hypocrisy of their counsellors, nor their own souls interest in Christ, may be easily led away to the slaughter. Now, reader, if you value your soul's prosperity, or the favour of Christ, beware! And whenever you hear men call such doctrines Antinomianism, ask them for their experience, and you will find that they are no more than Arminians in disguise, though Calvinists by profession. Seek a blessing of the Lord, then read it for yourself; afterwards take the book and ask their opinion; if they are not sound at heart, they must immediately, to prevent your discovering their Arminianism, call it Antinomianism. Adieu, while I remain for Christ's sake, the truth, and your soul's sake, yours sincerely, THE EDITOR. {From the 1792 Edition printed for G. Terry.}
     
    #8 Iconoclast, Apr 16, 2022
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2022
  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    So far I see hyper Calvinism unchecked here!

    At this point the suggestion is that Calvinists are enemies greater than those who are not Calvinists. Now I will have to search out if he can make a solid biblical case to support this idea.

    Those who oppose Calvinism based on caricatures of election and predestination and foreknowledge go to emotionalism
    They are a danger to truth. But a hyper Calvinist does not teach scripture, but a non biblical fatalism which is a danger in that it causes the way of the truth to be evil spoken of.



    This kind of hostile charge puts this position in doubt, serious doubt.
     
    #9 Iconoclast, Apr 16, 2022
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  10. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    I do not know if any here on BB will support these charges, that remains to be seen. It is looking like he views mainstream Calvinism as wolves in Sheep's clothing, not as brothers who differ. These are the initial points found here, not yet backed up by any scriptural basis.

    } The Editor to the Reader II To the Godly in Christ Jesus. Respecting Mr. Hussey's treatise on God's Operations of Grace, permit me to say, that in every age Satan has had his engines planted against mount Zion “the church of the living God, the beloved city,” either to distress or to destroy her
    . Among others, false apostles, false ministers, false doctrines, were none of the least, in order to pervert the right ways of the Lord, and to turn aside the simple from the paths of understanding. In the days of Mr. Hussey, the author of this precious and experimental treatise, they abounded.

    Ministers of Satan transformed into angels of light, appear to him more detestable and more dangerous to the church and fold of Christ, than open opposers of the truth as it is in Jesus. Such wolves in sheep's clothing had crept in unawares, not merely to spy out, but, if possible, to root out the liberties and privileges of the children of God. These base ends they endeavoured to accomplish, not by fair, open, avowed opposition to the truth, but by holding it in unrighteousness; walking in craftiness, and half heartedness, and hypocrisy; by feigned words, making merchandise of the simple and their experiences, holding the letter of the word, but denying the spirit thereof; holding the form, but denying the power, from such he turned away. Their business was to aim oblique strokes at Christian experience and confound the marks of sound Conversion; so that the hope of the righteous is removed. These base ends were to be accomplished, by calling an assurance of faith, vain presumption - a good hope, a false notion - communication with Father and Son through the Spirit, forged imagination - repentance unto life, a thing uncertain - an application of the word of life and promise to the soul, fanaticism and delusion; in short, that a life of faith in the Lamb of God, was not so much to be depended on as a life of doubting; that the love of God shed abroad in the heart, was not sufficient to produce good works, unless slavish fear was mixed therewith. Thus, these arch heralds of Satan attempted to destroy the believer standing on the Rock of Ages, to tear from his bosom every ground of comfort, and to pluck him from the strongholds, by first obliterating the marks of his regeneration, sonship, and interest in Christ; and then, if possible, debase him to the level of their own uncertainties. Yet, to give a finishing stroke to the whole, brand him with the odious name of Antinomian, while themselves, as enemies to the power of godliness, were the only characters in the world that deserved it.
     
  11. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    This is all Hyper-Calvinism, impure and simple.
    It was not what the early Particular Baptists taught, as is shown in the 1644/1646 1st London Confession.

    Article XXIV: Faith is ordinarily begotten by the preaching of the gospel, or word of Christ, without respect to any power of agency in the creature; but it being wholly passive, and dead in trespasses and sins, doth believe and is converted by no less a power than that which raised Christ from the dead.
    Art. XXV: The preaching of the gospel to the conversion of sinners, is absolutely free; no way requiring as absolutely necessary, any qualifications, preparations or terrors of the law, or preceding ministry of the law, but only and alone the naked soul, a sinner and ungodly, to receive Christ crucified, dead and buried, and risen again, who is made a Prince and a Saviour for such sinners as through the gospel shall be brought to believe on Him. [emboldening mine]

    The teaching of Hussey and others brought about a great deadening in many Particular Baptist churches during the 18th Century, but those who stuck to unrestricted Gospel preaching, like Benjamin Beddone and others, reaped a great harvest during those years.

    Read Spurgeon v. Hyper-Calvinism by Iain Murray (Banner of Truth. ISBN 0-85151-692-0) or History of the English Calvinistic Baptists by Robert Oliver (Banner of Truth. ISBN 0-85151-920-2).
     
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  12. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    He’s put Calvinists/Calvinism on a rail…
     
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  13. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Without an understanding the general redemption being true, no one today can even know from Holy Scripture that Christ had died for them or anyone in particular.
     
    #13 37818, Apr 16, 2022
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  14. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    I agree, but I am going to work through this and examine where if he goes off why it happens. I think he will offer solid verses from scripture about God. Then unless he makes a good case for his position, we will see error.
     
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  15. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    That is not the direction this person is going in....the atonement is not what he is discussing.
    To follow his train of thought, you would need to put yourself in the position and belief system of a mainstream Calvinist, as it looks as if he is out to launch a major attack on that position.
     
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  16. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Problem #1, the title of this thread, "GOD'S OPERATIONS OF GRACE BUT NO OFFERS OF HIS GRACE." Flies I the face Christ's commission, Matthew 28:19, Mark 16:15. So any argument is void without hearing them.
    Issue #2. 396 pages. Based on.problem #1. Not worthy of the time. At least for me, not now, maybe later.
     
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  17. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    God's Operations of Grace, &c CHAPTER ONE The method propounded, the matter stated, and followed into the grand plea for offers, and there briefly examined and defeated. The order of this little writing will consist principally of three points.

    1. Concerning offers of Grace.

    2. Concerning invitation of sinners to come to Christ.

    3. Concerning exhortations to sinners to come to Christ. And albeit I may insist mostly {if the Lord will} upon the first branch of these three laid down, thereby, through the Lord's assistance, to rectify the mistaken doctrine about offers of Grace, and to advance the true doctrine of Free Grace Operations working efficaciously upon the elect of God; yet I may likewise add something, though very briefly, which belongs to the other two branches. To begin by laying down the method of handling the first, viz., the offers of Grace and Salvation.

    I. To show how men do verbalize their offers of Christ, in name and thing.

    II. To disprove them, and overthrow their scheme, as an ill, anti-evangelical state of the matter, and that by manifesting three principal points in the debate.
    1. That to offer Christ to sinners, is not to preach Christ to sinners.

    2. That to propound such an offer in the external means, is no means of the Spirit's working an internal ability in sinners, to close savingly with any such offer.

    3. That to suggest an offer of Christ, and a gift of Christ to be both one thing, is a barefaced error. {“Thou shalt not sow thy vineyard with divers seeds; lest the fruit of thy seed which thou hast sown, and the fruit of thy vineyard, be defiled.” Deut.22:9.}

    III. To resolve the puzzling question, how then must we preach the Gospel unto sinners, if we do not propound an offer of Salvation to them? In the resolution of which doubt, proffers of Grace, offers of Christ, tenders of Salvation, etc., will be withstood and overthrown, as 12 unscriptural and powerless forms.

    IV. To make some reply unto the mis-adapting of divers texts of Scripture that are commonly mistaken upon this argument.

    V. Lastly, to make a further reply to the more common and current pleas, used by weak men, for want of better arguments.
     
  18. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    If the paper makes the case that Calvinism actually makes no offers of His grace. What else is there to say?
     
  19. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    We begin and show, how these men state the doctrine of their offer.

    1. As to the name, men have stored it with a show of wisdom and will worship as the Apostle says, Col.2:23, in a sufficient increase of their own procuring. {“Hast thou not procured this unto thyself, in that thou hast forsaken the LORD thy God, when he led thee by the way?” Jer.2:17.}

    For the word “offer” is not to be found in Scripture in any other sense than to sacrifice; and to be sure, when these men offer Christ, they do not mean that they sacrifice him; no, they have another meaning in the term, as it relates to the preaching of the Gospel, though they thus express themselves. And therefore they speak sometimes of offers of Grace; sometimes propounding the offer; sometimes proposals of the Gospel offer; sometimes tenders of the Gospel; sometimes tendering Salvation, which are all Blind and Scripture-less forms! {“Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.” Acts 20:30.} Methinks, if men had meant preaching the Gospel by these phrases, it is an intolerable assault upon the sacred text of both Testaments, to word it so perversely.

    The Oracles of God have an elegant variety of expression, to set forth the preaching of Jesus Christ.
    As for example, i
    t is called speaking, I Cor.2:7,13,
    speaking the word, Phil.1:14, p
    preaching, Acts 20:25,
    preaching the Gospel, Lk.30:1,
    preaching glad tidings, Isa.61:1,
    preaching the kingdom of God, Acts 28:31,
    preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, Matt.4:23,
    teaching, Col.1:28, teaching the word of God, Acts 18:11, teaching the things that concern the Lord Jesus Christ, Acts 28:31,
    showing the glad tidings of the Kingdom of God, Lk.8:1,
    declaring glad tidings, Acts 13:32,
    showing by the Scriptures, Acts 18:28,
    bringing glad tidings of good things, Rom.10:15, &c., and the like.

    But never once in all this variety of phrase, do the 13 Scriptures call preaching the Gospel by the names and phrases of offering, proffering, propounding or tendering Grace, Christ, Salvation and glad tidings to sinners.

    How conceited must some men be of their own, or other men's wisdom, who notwithstanding they have so little to say in behalf of these unscriptural phrases, are yet resolved, Deut.2:30, to keep them up. {“For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.” I Cor.1:19.} Whereas this very hint, {if no more could be said,} that the phrases are without any Scriptural support,
    I Pet.4:11, and their meaning unable to justify a correct understanding, or to make an agreeable signification to befit the Gospel, Acts 15:15; if no more could be said, is enough to make poor, humble, modest souls drop such expressions, even such of the children of God, who are sensible that their mouths are not filled with Gospel sweetness, unless as they have experienced the flowing rivers of living water, Jn.7:38, in the opening of their mouths wide, Psal.81:10, the Lord Christ having filled them. Now if men find as great a sweetness in phrases of human invention and imagination, and in defence of them, as they find in the Holy Ghost's language of the Bible, which hath plentifully spoken the same things, and far better to instruct us, it is a sure sign that their mouths have not been opened wide, nor can it be any argument that Christ fills them. For in the Holy Scriptures the Lord uses expressions enough to fill a man's mouth, when he speaks of the preaching of the Gospel, so as that he shall have no need to use these sickly terms and ill-worded phrases, into which the tongues of so many false preachers have been dipped and sunk.

    2. As to the matter in hand, they have distributed the meaning of their terms into different classes. By which they persuade us, that they do not all speak with one mind, Rom.15:16, while they speak with one mouth, professing to glorify God and to save men by offers of Gospel Grace or by the proposals of the Gospel, and by the tenders of Salvation made unto them, in their way of supposedly preaching the Gospel. {“For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God; but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.” II Cor.2:17.} Some have looked upon these terms to be general redemption offers; and indeed men may easily see that without general offers of Grace they cannot preach consistent enough with general redemption doctrines, as without General Redemption Doctrine they cannot preach consistently with general offers of Grace. Moreover, what they call universal grace offers, or universal proposals, and general tenders of Grace to sinners, are the same things, while these general men strive to keep up a consistency in their notions of universal philanthropy towards every individual soul of mankind. These persons have also understood them to be Free will offers, &c., and have ascribed an indifference to the balance of the will, to poise its inclination equally towards accepting or rejecting these offers of Grace. {“Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge?” Job 42:3.} And as they admit a methodical offer of Grace, necessary for conveying the Grace of God, upon the supposition of a Free balance of self-power, to determine and incline the will to accept of God's Salvation, they must then suppose a balance towards the Grace admitted, even so far as there are supposed offers or tenders of Grace made to those souls who receive them; inasmuch that such Free-willers and professors of Grace, are according to their own principles, consistent enough with themselves. {“And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have wrought with you for my name's sake, not according to your wicked ways, nor according to your corrupt doings, O ye house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.” Ezek.20:44.} The great difficulty is how to bring some men holding our principles of Grace to be consistent with themselves.
    3. Others have set up with conditional offers, with conditional proposals, and with conditional tenders. That is, you shall enjoy Heaven and Salvation, if you will repent and believe, and perform sincere obedience to the conditions of a Gospelized Law
     
  20. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    I do not think he can make such a case. and in fact this is exactly what is known as Hyper Calvinism.
    Biblical Calvinists defend against this error just as much or more than those errors you and others present.
    As a main stream Calvinist I am going to examine this book, see if he can establish any kind of case that I have not seen already.
    I doubt it, but sometimes to test what I believe, I look for the best opposition and see if it holds up biblically.
    As I stated he will offer a biblical case but does it stand the test...we need to see.
     
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