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God's word

Ed Edwards

<img src=/Ed.gif>
Originally posted by HomeBound:
My opinion on the various English versions is this, they will never be the bible the King James Bible is.
I respect your opinion. I'd even agree with it with
a minor change:

My opinion on the various English
versions is this, they will never
be the bible the King James Bible was.

BTW. i will still campaign against those
who hide that the original King James Bible
disclosed textual variants in side notes.
The side notes, being from God to help us
understand what His message is about --
the side notes are inspired and inerrant
and the perfect words of God.
Books like most KJV1769 editions and most
KJV1762 editions (well, at least the US
rip-offs) are missing some of the perfection
of those which have the translator sidenotes.

wave.gif
 

HankD

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Actually, no. P66 has a handful of distinctively Byzantine *readings*, but certainly not an overall Byzantine *text*.
OK but this could be viewed as an "inkling", if somehow we were able to followed p66 to its source(s), one of them might be predominantly "Byzantine".

HankD
 

Archangel7

New Member
Originally posted by HankD:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Actually, no. P66 has a handful of distinctively Byzantine *readings*, but certainly not an overall Byzantine *text*.
OK but this could be viewed as an "inkling", if somehow we were able to followed p66 to its source(s), one of them might be predominantly "Byzantine".</font>[/QUOTE]Not really, since it would be like finding a handful of NIV readings in the KJV and arguing that if we followed these readings to their source, we'd find that the KJV was based on the NIV.
 

skanwmatos

New Member
Non sequitur. Your allegation is that the Byzantine text did not exist prior to the 4th century. The fact is that distinctively Byzantine readings have been found which date to as early as the 2nd century.

The Byzantine text is almost identical to the Alexandrian text except for about 9,000 variants, the vast majority of which are minor spelling differences. The thing which delineates a Byzantine manuscript from an Alexandrian manuscript are those distinctive readings. To deny those readings exist, and are Byzantine, is to deny demonstrable fact.
 

Archangel7

New Member
Originally posted by skanwmatos:

Non sequitur. Your allegation is that the Byzantine text did not exist prior to the 4th century. The fact is that distinctively Byzantine readings have been found which date to as early as the 2nd century.

The Byzantine text is almost identical to the Alexandrian text except for about 9,000 variants, the vast majority of which are minor spelling differences. The thing which delineates a Byzantine manuscript from an Alexandrian manuscript are those distinctive readings. To deny those readings exist, and are Byzantine, is to deny demonstrable fact.
Nobody denies that a handful of distinctively Byzantine *readings* are found in pre-4th C. sources, some of them very early. That's an established fact. What's *not* an established fact is that the Byzantine *text* as a whole existed before the 4th C. The evidence we have suggests that those early Byzantine readings were among the many sources that fed into what would eventually become the Byzantine text in the post-Constantinian period.
 

HankD

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Not really, since it would be like finding a handful of NIV readings in the KJV and arguing that if we followed these readings to their source, we'd find that the KJV was based on the NIV.
This is not a good example because we already know that the basis of your analogy is NOT true. These are discrete translations and not copies. We have not yet established (as you have said) which if any of the texts type families preceding p66 contributed to it and to what extent. If p66 is as early as 120AD as some have dated it then it may be only 2 or 3 generations from the original.

HankD
 

Archangel7

New Member
Originally posted by HankD:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Not really, since it would be like finding a handful of NIV readings in the KJV and arguing that if we followed these readings to their source, we'd find that the KJV was based on the NIV.
This is not a good example because we already know that the basis of your analogy is NOT true. These are discrete translations and not copies. </font>[/QUOTE]The purpose of the analogy is to highlight the serious methodological flaw involved in arguing from the early existence of a small number of *readings* to the early existence of an entire *text type*.
 

HankD

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The purpose of the analogy is to highlight the serious methodological flaw involved in arguing from the early existence of a small number of *readings* to the early existence of an entire *text type*.
I understand, my premise simply allows for the *possibililty* of a text type which admittedly could be 'Alexandrian' or 'Byzantine' (though that would be a misnomer but rather what Burgon called the 'Traditional Text') or something else.

HankD
 

skanwmatos

New Member
The following is excerpted from The New Testament in the Original Greek according to the Byzantine/Majority Textform, Maurice Robinson and William Pierpont, 1991, Original Word Publishers, Inc., Atlanta, GA.
The Allegation of No Early Byzantine Manuscripts

The most common criticism concerns the fact that there are in existence no manuscripts of the Byzantine Textform earlier than AD 400. At first glance, this appears to be a formidable objection, and indeed unanswerable in view of the absence of the hard data required for refutation. A defense which provides sound reasons for this situation, however, can be effectively made.

First of all, the extant early manuscript evidence we possess all apparently stems from the Egyptian region, and reflects the mixed types of text prevalent in that area during the second century. Indeed, had it not been for the fortuitous discovery of P75 (ca. AD 175) in 1955, we today would have no certain evidence that manuscripts which were predominantly Alexandrian in character predated the great uncial codices Vaticanus and Sinaiticus (ca. AD 350) -- only a hypothesis. That hypothesis would be called into serious question by the remaining papyri, each of which possesses a good degree of "mixture" between Alexandrian and Western readings (with some "distinctively Byzantine" readings thrown in for good measure). Any bold assertion that the point is settled, since no predominantly Byzantine manuscripts of the second century have yet been recovered, certainly seems to beg the question from an argument based on silence.

Secondly, the overall presence of Western + Alexandrian "mixture" in the known papyri from Egypt indicates a far more complex textual situation in that region than might have been imagined for the Greek-speaking Eastern portion of the Empire. The local situation of Egypt would thus not be the most appropriate for preserving a more "general" text -- a text which had its origin and its essence above and beyond any purely "local" or regional texts.[23] The complexity of the text in the Egyptian papyri is strongly paralleled among the Old Latin manuscripts which predominated in the Western portion of the Empire -- thoroughly "mixed" manuscripts possessing "African" and "European" readings which reflected no common archetype in their "uncontrolled" state.

Thirdly, in postulating a reconstruction of the history of textual transmission which favors the Byzantine-priority hypothesis, it is not at all necessary that a Byzantine manuscript be expected or produced from these earliest centuries. In fact, a "pure" Byzantine text may have almost vanished in certain locales shortly after the completion of the autograph form of the canonical books, especially among non-church manuscripts in areas relatively distant from their original source.[24] Such a puzzling and paradoxical notion stems from the knowledge of the uncontrolled "popular" nature of some localized textual transmission (evidenced by many surviving papyri) as practiced during the first few centuries and the status of the church at that time as a persecuted entity. It appears that when the early copies of the autographs arrived in regions distant from their sources there must have been less constraint against altering their wording in such locales.[25] "Popular" alterations and regional "corrections" would combine in a continual process of scribal corruption and resultant mixture of texts. This process would occur as scribally-altered manuscripts were later cross-corrected from other "popular" manuscripts possessing differing readings -- whether intentionally (with good motives) by the orthodox, or accidentally.[26]

Thus, in some localities during this early period, there arose "uncontrolled" and "popular" types of copies, which were apparently widely distributed in those areas. Pious attempts to "correct" some of the aberrations intensified the problem as time went on. This situation was further complicated by the increasing persecution against the church, which effectively cut off certain controlling and correcting factors. This reconstruction of the history of textual transmission seems to be demanded in view of the confusion evidenced by the early surviving Greek papyrus and uncial manuscripts, both in their originally-copied text and in the various attempts to re-edit and "correct" them into a more satisfactory product.

Although oral recollection and liturgical repetition of biblical texts could serve as a stabilizing factor for the Greek New Testament text, neither of these "unwritten standards" would be foolproof. Only a well-preserved written standard could serve to secure and safeguard a correct and reliable "original text."

Had there been no original "common archetype" (the autographs), this uncontrolled process would have produced much the same result among the Greek manuscripts as found among the Old Latin -- a veritable hodgepodge of readings created by individualist scribes ("translators" as regards the Old Latin), with no characteristically-prevailing "majority" text, whether Byzantine or any other.[27] Such indeed was the situation when Jerome was commissioned to make sense out of the Old Latin in order to create a "standard text" for the Latin-speaking Church.

Jerome's revision was absolutely necessary to unify the Latin tradition. Apart from a similar "Byzantine revision" (of which there is no historical evidence), the Byzantine Textform dominance cannot be satisfactorily explained by those who reject its possible "autograph archetype" status. Nor can appeal to a simplistic "process" hypothesis solve the problem.

An unrestricted "process" would lead only to greater mixture and less and less unity of text, such as had occurred with the Old Latin manuscripts. Only a common pre-existing archetype will permit order ever to come out of chaos. Even that possibility depends upon both the process of time and sufficient scribal concern for the text being copied so that other manuscripts beyond the current exemplar (master copy) would be regularly consulted for corrective purposes.

The original Byzantine Textform must have rapidly degenerated into the various uncontrolled popular texts which prevailed in certain times and localities, due to the events and circumstances which surrounded manuscript copying during the first three centuries. These "popular" texts, in the normal process of copying and re-copying (with scribal "improvements" and blunders coupled with cross-correction changes from other exemplars), eventually would have developed into the distinctive "local text" forms which centered around various metropolitan regions. These in effect became the birthplaces of various "texttypes" -- some now probably lost to history, since they prevailed in regions where the climate was too damp to allow a preservation of such manuscripts. Of those locally-preserved texttypes, we find in manuscripts of the present day those minority groups which we term the Western, Alexandrian, and Caesarean (the Byzantine Textform is specifically excluded from the enumeration of local texts under the present hypothesis since it represents the original Textform from which all the others derived).

All this occurred during the period of greatest persecution for the early church. It is understandable, given these circumstances, that the preservation of the precise "autograph form" of the text by common scribes did not always have the highest priority. The rise of local text forms was the best possible result that could have been expected in some locales. Local text forms would arise only as a side effect of the deposition of certain "popular" texts in a given locality, regardless of their genealogical derivation.

Once the status of the churches had become sanctioned under Constantine, however, the predominantly "local" nature of the church was permanently altered. Official sanction engendered wider communication between the churches, including regional and Empire-wide councils. Greater communication meant wider travel and exchange of manuscripts among both the churches and individual Christians. It was only natural that cross-comparison and correction of one manuscript by another should then proceed on a numerical and geographical scale far greater than ever before.

The result of this spontaneous "improvement" of manuscripts through cross-correction would not manifest itself immediately. Over the process of time, however, all manuscripts would slowly but inexorably tend toward a common and universally-shared text -- a text with its own subgroups and minor differences among the manuscripts, but a text which was basically unitary in form and content, though not itself an ingrown "local text" nor identical with any single local text.[28] This "universal text" could only be one which would approach the common archetype which lay behind all the local text forms. For the Greek manuscripts, that archetype could only be the autograph form itself.

Scribal "creativity" formed no part of this "autograph restoration" process; readings created by individual scribes would be effectively weeded out during the next copying generation or soon thereafter by cross-correction. The vast amount of "singular readings" obviously created by scribes, as seen in our existing manuscripts, amply illustrates the fact of the relative nonproliferation of unique scribal alterations.

The result inevitably arrived at would be a continually-improving, self-consistent Textform, refined and restored, preserved (as would be expected) in an increasing number of manuscripts which slowly would overcome the influence of "local texts" and finally become the dominant text of the Greek-speaking world. This explains both the origin and dominance of the Byzantine/Majority Textform.

This reconstruction adequately explains why no early Byzantine manuscripts appear among our existing documents, as well as the phenomenon of the Byzantine Textform. It has offered a plausible reconstruction which requires no extreme theological "leaps of faith," nor a general assignment of blame to "heretics" for non-Byzantine texttypes or readings. Nor are any "wild" speculations presented which strain the sensibilities of the inquirer. A sound, rational approach which accounts for all the phenomena and offers a reconstruction of the history of textual transmission is all that is demanded for any text-critical hypothesis. It is the opinion of the editors that these criteria have begun to be fulfilled in the presentation and advocacy of the present Textform so as to overcome a predominant objection that has been urged against a Byzantine-priority hypothesis.[29]

23 See Burnett Hillman Streeter, The Four Gospels: A Study in Origins, 4th impression revised (London: Macmillan, 1930), pp. 26-76, for a discussion of "Local Text" theory and its implications for textual criticism. The "Western" texttype is the local text typical of the Latin-speaking portions of the Roman Empire. It is subdivided into "European" and "North African" subtypes. The "Alexandrian" texttype is the local text of the Egyptian region, heavily influenced by the Coptic language. The "Caesarean" texttype predominated in Palestine, and reflects a local mixture of Alexandrian and Byzantine readings, stemming from that region's respective southern and northern geographical textual "neighbors."

24 "Church manuscripts" would have been those designed for regular use in public worship as well as those formally prepared and distributed from local churches to individual Christians. Manuscripts used in the churches were originally in continuous-text form; in later centuries the text of Church manuscripts was rearranged in the order of the readings (lections) for the liturgical year (hence, "Lectionaries"). "Non-church manuscripts" would indicate those documents prepared by individuals for personal use outside the church context proper.

25 We speak here primarily of Egypt and the Western Roman Empire regions where Coptic and Latin were the primary languages, in contrast to the native Greek-speaking portions of the Mediterranean world. Many factors related to the native language differences as well as to a strong oral proclamation of the Gospel message would have contributed to the situation as we find it in the early manuscripts, Versions, and Fathers of the regions.

26 Scribal error and cross-correction from another exemplar is clearly exemplified by the scribe of P66. See Gordon D. Fee, Papyrus Bodmer n (P66): Its Textual Relationships and Scribal Characteristics, Studies and Documents 34 ed. Jacob Geerlings (Salt Lake City: University of Utah Press, 1968). Heretical corruption of texts is not here in view; indeed, the existing New Testament manuscripts show no consistent marks of such alteration as is reported in the early Fathers concerning manuscripts produced by the heretics Marcion or Tatian.

27 Note that the "human factor" affecting translation into another language naturally plays a larger role than mere scribal copying within a single language group. Nevertheless, the uncontrolled "popular" form of the Greek text, with its sometimes freewheeling deliberate and accidental scribal alterations plus cross-correction from other exemplars, provides a close parallel to the situation which so adversely affected the transmission of the Old Latin manuscripts.

28 This consideration alone rules out any notion that the Byzantine Textform was merely the "local text" of Constantinople, which somehow could mysteriously overwhelm all other local texttypes. Neither the Arab conquest of Alexandria nor the degeneration of Western Christianity could have allowed such a development as a natural process. Even Kurt Aland had to posit an "officially-imposed" authoritative decision in order for his so-called "Byzantine Imperial Text" to spread rapidly and dominate Eastern Christianity in such a short time. Such an imposition of ecclesiastical authority, however, once more falls under the same condemnation that seriously weakened Hort's "revision" hypothesis: there simply is no historical data to support such a contention.

29 Our view summarized from available evidence is this: the earliest surviving copies show a very wide range of difference among themselves, yet with a "backbone" of general consistency running quite strongly all along, in spite of their plain blunders and/or deliberate alterations. The pre-existing "backbone" thus served as some sort of standard which provided that relative consistency in the midst of some rather wild local deviation. Yet almost suddenly, from the late fourth century onward, a quite solid and consistent Textform is seen in almost all quarters. This near-universality can be explained only because the Textform already had been present all along, or a "legislated" and forced imposition of a revised text was almost simultaneously adopted in nearly all quarters without complaint. Since there is no hard evidence for the latter option, the former necessarily commends itself as the best way in which to account for the data we now possess. This is a strong argument, based upon evidence that, even in the "wild" early manuscripts, this great "universal" type of text was already in existence. This evidence appears in the commonly-shared text of each of those early papyri.
 

Archangel7

New Member
Originally posted by skanwmatos:

The following is excerpted from The New Testament in the Original Greek according to the Byzantine/Majority Textform, Maurice Robinson and William Pierpont, 1991, Original Word Publishers, Inc., Atlanta, GA

The Allegation of No Early Byzantine Manuscripts.
The article is far too long to comment on every point, but there are a couple to which I'd like to respond.

...Any bold assertion that the point is settled, since no predominantly Byzantine manuscripts of the second century have yet been recovered, certainly seems to beg the question from an argument based on silence....

...the overall presence of Western + Alexandrian "mixture" in the known papyri from Egypt indicates a far more complex textual situation in that region than might have been imagined for the Greek-speaking Eastern portion of the Empire. The local situation of Egypt would thus not be the most appropriate for preserving a more "general" text -- a text which had its origin and its essence above and beyond any purely "local" or regional texts...
If, as the Byzantine priority hypothesis posits, the Byzantine text was the earliest and most widely used text throughout the entire ancient world (presumably including Egypt) from the most ancient times, doesn't it seem *extremely* improbable that absolutely *no* Byzantine copies has survived? Or that *no* ancient version before the 4th C. is based on a Byzantine text? Or that *no* church father before Asterius the Sophist (c. 341 A.D.) used a Byzantine text? Especially when you consider that the Alexandrian and Western texts are both well represented in early manuscripts, versions, and patristic writings? Or that while the early mixed texts display significant Western + Alexandrian mixture, there's almost no Western + Byzantine or Alexandrian + Byzantine mixture?

....Jerome's revision was absolutely necessary to unify the Latin tradition. Apart from a similar "Byzantine revision" (of which there is no historical evidence), the Byzantine Textform dominance cannot be satisfactorily explained by those who reject its possible "autograph archetype" status....
But there *is* historical evidence of a "Byzantine revision." Jerome tells us that Lucian of Antioch produced a revised text of the NT. Eusebius tells us that Constantine ordered him to make fifty copies of the Bible for use in the church. If Lucian's early Byzantine text were used as the exemplar for Constantine's officially produced Bibles, that would explain how the Byzantine text became dominant.
 

HankD

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jerome tells us that Lucian of Antioch produced a revised text of the NT.
"revised" or "corrected" archangel?

Do you know the exact word used?

HankD
 

Archangel7

New Member
Originally posted by HankD:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Jerome tells us that Lucian of Antioch produced a revised text of the NT.
"revised" or "corrected" archangel?

Do you know the exact word used?
</font>[/QUOTE]Here's an English translation of Jerome's remarks in full --&gt; LINK

The word used in this translation is "correct[ed];" I don't know what it is in the Latin, as I don't have access to the Latin text.
 

HankD

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The word used in this translation is "correct[ed];" I don't know what it is in the Latin, as I don't have access to the Latin text.
Thanks, I have the Latin but my Church Father's software engine is toast since I installed XP.

HankD
 

Archangel7

New Member
Originally posted by HankD:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> The word used in this translation is "correct[ed];" I don't know what it is in the Latin, as I don't have access to the Latin text.
Thanks, I have the Latin but my Church Father's software engine is toast since I installed XP.</font>[/QUOTE]Ah, yes, MicroSoft XP... the world's biggest computer virus.
 
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