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Featured Harmony or Hostility?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Jan 27, 2023.

  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Sometimes you can find two verses that read very much the same in two different books, but then you also find the scholars think one verse was altered to read like another by a copyist in a misguided effort to present the true harmony of scripture. Translators might be tempted to engage in emendation too, and that of course would be very wrong.

    One of the oft repeated phrases found in the New Testament is "from (or before) the foundation of the world." This phrase is found about 10 times. And the Greek word, transliterated Katabole (G2602) is translated as "foundation" in all 10 of these cases.

    However, we can find a very similar phrase "from the foundation of the earth" also in the New Testament. One would assume that these phrases in the original Greek would be very similar, since they are translated almost in the same way. However, "katabole" also appears to mean "cast down" (see Hebrews 11:11) so why is it translated as if it means "foundation," when another Greek word, transliterated "Themelioo" (G2311) actually means foundation? See Hebrews 1:10.

    So why do these very different phrases read nearly the same in many of our English translations, is this a case of actual harmony of message, or a case of hostility to God's inspired word?

    It is interesting to consider Hebrews 6:1, because both our words appear, but the idea is "not again casting down the foundation of repentance from dead works and faith in God." "Foundation" is another translation of "themelioo" and (in verb form) "kataballomeno" is rendered "laying or casting down." (See Hebrews 6:1 and 2 Corinthians 4:9)

    What if God's word was intended to say, from (or before) the founding of humanity?
     
  2. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I suggest you spend at least ten years immersed day and night in a constant effort to understand biblical Greek in the context it was written before you make these statements.

    There is an answer. Those who have dedicated their lives to understanding the biblical Greek can best answer your question.

    One thing is certain, however, there is no reason to disregard 2000 years of the traditional understanding of scripture to satisfy the Calvinist Slayer bias you bring to your amateur understanding of biblical Greek.

    Give it a rest for about ten years while you actually, intensely study biblical Greek so you quit saying you don’t like what scripture says because it supports “Calvinism”, so you just ignore the traditional understanding and interpret to feed your bias.

    peace to you
     
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  3. RipponRedeaux

    RipponRedeaux Well-Known Member

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    See, the above is typical Vanology. With Hhs attitude, anything that differs from his opinion is false theology. In this case hostility toward God.
    Van has no self-awareness. Otherwise he would be embarrassed by all the posts he has made over the years demonstrating his narcissistic conduct.
     
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  4. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    Again Van, you makes yourself look really bad by posting what you do.

    I’m not trying to be mean spirited, I am trying to help you out.

    rule #4-5 in translating anything in any language is context

    any linguist knows this matter
     
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  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yet another blow hard spouting nonsense, demeaning others, rather than contributing
     
  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yet another blow hard spouting nonsense, demeaning others, rather than contributing.
     
  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Why are posters (see posts # 2,3 and 4) addressing me and not the thread topic.

    I pointed out that "from the foundation of the world" probably meant from the founding of humanity. No one offered any argument to support that cast down as in casting down seed includes the idea of founding or conception.

    And no one argued against the idea that emendation to create harmony reflects hostility toward the sovereignty of God's Word.
     
  8. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    You posed a question at the very end of you OP

    we answered you accordingly
     
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  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    No, you did not provide any answer, just the usual drivel disparaging me.

    I pointed out that "from the foundation of the world" probably meant from the founding of humanity. No one offered any argument to support that cast down as in casting down seed includes the idea of founding or conception.

    And no one argued against the idea that emendation to create harmony reflects hostility toward the sovereignty of God's Word.
     
  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    What is the context of the verses which include the phrase, the foundation of the world?
    Matthew 13:35 refers to the time period since things were hidden from humanity.

    Matthew 25:34 refers to the kingdom prepared for people since the founding of humanity.

    Luke 11:50 refers to charging the shed blood of prophets against humanity since the founding of humanity.

    John 17:24 refers to Christ existing before the founding of humanity.

    Ephesians 1:4 refers to Christ being chosen before the founding of humanity to be God's redeemer and the corporate choice therefore of those His redeemer would redeem.

    Hebrews 4:3 refers to God completing His words since the founding of humanity.

    Hebrews 9:26 refers to the fact Christ would have needed to suffer many times since the founding of humanity if He was like the human High Priests, entering a temple made by human hands, but He was not, and offered Himself once for all.

    1 Peter 1:20 refers to Christ being know as the Lamb of God before the founding of humanity.

    Revelation 13:8 refers to names written in the Lamb's book of life since the founding of humanity.

    Revelation 17:8 refers to names written in the Lamb's book of life since the founding of humanity.
     
  11. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I gave you sound advice.

    You are, at best, an amateur Greek student and yet you start numerous threads suggesting Christians disregard 2000 years of traditional understanding of scripture that is supported by countless Greek Scholars that have devoted decades of their lives in intense study of Biblical Greek.

    You appear to have only one motivation in your attempt to comprehend Biblical Greek. You are looking for some way to undermine the passages of scripture that support Calvinism.

    Please Van, stop this madness. Just accept what scripture says and you will be much happier.

    peace to you
     
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  12. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I present the basis for my understanding of scripture which differs from yours. You make up disparagement because you do not seem to be able to support your views from scripture.

    Actually, I started out with the idea I would support Calvinism by studying scripture. But when I found verse after verse that had to be expanded in scope to find Calvinism I saw the light.

    And the premise of this thread in no way undermines Calvinism, it suggests some verses in our English translations are sometimes agenda driven nonsense.

    And you Sir are the one unwilling to accept what scripture says. I say it actually means what it says and not the opposite of what it says, For example saved through faith, not saved then given faith.
     
  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I don't get the Hebrews 11:11 reference.

    Hebrews 11:11 By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised.
     
  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The phrase "ability to conceive" is a translation of the Greek construction of "dunamin eis kabolen spernatis: (power for down-casting of seed). Thus Hebrews 11:11 demonstrates (1) katabole means down-casting and (2) used to indicating the laying down or founding of something.
     
  15. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    No one before Augustine in the 5th century interpreted any verse Calvinistically. Just saying.
     
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  16. RipponRedeaux

    RipponRedeaux Well-Known Member

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    Calvin himself regarded Chrysostom (347-407) a master of biblical exegesis.
     
  17. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Speaking of which, here's Chrysostom on Acts 13:48's ordained:

    "But ordained, not in regard of necessity: whom he foreknew, says the Apostle, he did predestinate (Romans 8:29)."
    Chapter 13 - Patristic Bible Commentary

    Calvin would very much disagree with Chrysostom on that; but the point is upheld:
    no one before Augustine in the 5th century ever read the scriptures à la Calvinist. That's 400 years of NT where no one on record ever saw anything Calvinistic in the book.
    It was Augustine who disregarded 400 year of traditional interpretation when he drew once more out of the well of his former Manichaean Gnosticism - all gnostic religions (including atheism) are deterministic, like Calvinism.
     
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  18. RipponRedeaux

    RipponRedeaux Well-Known Member

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    I value what Christ, John, Paul and the other Apostles said upholding the Doctrine(s) of Grace --long before Augustine.
     
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  19. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    Where are you guys getting all this insight into Augustine's theology? I've just started reading some of his writing, I'm in "The Confessions" currently. I find him hard to read, all over the place, and very "Catholic" so far. It does look like a lot of modern Calvinists are stretching it to mold Augustine into what we would call a "Calvinist" but it's just as much of a stretch to make it seem like he was a Baptist. It's almost like he was some kind of a Catholic Bishop or something.
     
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  20. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    The predictable reply. Not just you, we all do, brother. Besides, you're the one who appealed to Chrysostom. When I quoted him, suddenly you back into I of Christ.
    Anyway, I was responding, as you well know, to:

    So the point, yet again, stands: whether rightly or wrongly, no one before Augustine in the 5th century ever interpreted the scriptures Calvinistically (that is, Gnostically).

    Now if you care to quote a church father that expounded Calvinism before Augustine, by all means, go ahead. Until then, the point stands.
     
    #20 George Antonios, Jan 31, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2023
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