HARRY POTTER SHOULD BE OUT!

[dr396]

Servant,

I have worked in 3 Christian bookstores and managed one and I have a Masters of Divinity. I can assure you that most of the books in Christian bookstores are trash. People write most books to make money and the stores sell them because they can make money as well. I don't trust too many authors out there. When one of the major authors I read comes out with something or recommends something (as in the case with the one I mentioned), I will read it. Otherwise, I don't waste my time. But if you want some good books you can count on go to www.discerningreader.com. They only recommend good books.

D.R.

 

[doug_mmm]

People,

I dont recall there ever being a fuss about Micky Mouse playing the wizards apprentice. Or the little fairies helping Cinderella.....

Isnt that supposedly portraying magic ( ie occult )?

Could we be overreacting here ? Is there any evidence ( serious evidence ) that kids will flock to Satanism after seeing Harry Potter.

If we are so concerned with our kids welfare why do we allow Occultic Rock Music everywhere ?

Are we going to ban any publication with Astrology columns ?

Just a thought ?

 

[Servent]

D.R.

Have you read the book I was talking about.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by doug_mmm:
Are we going to ban any publication with Astrology columns ?

Interestingly, numerous studies which have tracked modern day astrologers' columns and predictions have shown that the number of times a prediction becomes a reality is roughly the same as chance. Quite literally, a Magic Eight Ball can predict the future as accurately as paid professionals.

In other words, there is nothing whatsoever to such columns. They are of no value.

 

[dr396]

Servant,

you didn't give me any title or author. I thought you were talking about any books on Harry Potter. Are you talking about a specific one? If so, please give me a title and author. Thanks,

D.R.

 

[Servent]

D.R.
Im not sure of the author I read the book and then gave it away, the title is harry potter.

 

[dr396]

Well find out the author because I can't find it online if I don't have it. Maybe you could remember the publisher or something. Regardless, what is the premise of the book and why do you think it is important in this discussion?

D.R.

 

[4-christ]

Phillip i feel the same the way I dont know if he is for it or against I dont understand. He doenst state if he is for or against it. Im confused!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[superdave]

Harry Potter is a religious film also. It is a fictional representation of almost every major tenet of the Wiccan religion. In our Neo-pagan Government school system, the rebellion of witchcraft is about the only allowed religious teaching, aside from Islam perhaps.

 

[superdave]

I guess my specific point more relevant to the discussion, is that Harry Potter is not the fictional representations of "magic" seen in many of the other book/movies mentioned, ie: C.S. Lewis, Tolkien, Mickey Mouse, Wizard of OZ, etc.

It is in many cases, using real Wiccan themes, incatiations, references, and terminology. Head in the sand or not, you should realize that "Magic" is not just fiction, there are actually people who practice witchcraft as a real religion, and Harry Potter is true to that teaching so much that Wiccan groups have praised it as a great intro for kids to the religion.

Much more dangerous than any Mickey Mouse cartoon that children really cannot emulate.

I actually went to Borders, and they had Harry Potter books in a display with non-fiction books about the occult. The author did not write the books for children specifically, that was the publishers decision, and as the books have progressed they have gotten distinctively darker and more openly occult in their content.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by superdave:
It is in many cases, using real Wiccan themes, incatiations, references, and terminology.

Like????

For the record, I did a bit of research, and the supposed "real incantations" were all made up for the book. A few people maintain that they're real incantations, but that is patently false. Now, if anyone can tell me how to successfully lights a candle, fix my reading glasses, or get my broom to dart about the kitchen on its own, then maybe I'll change my tune.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by superdave:
I actually went to Borders, and they had Harry Potter books in a display with non-fiction books about the occult.

I question that, since in both my local Borders and two Barnes and Noble booksellers, they're clearly in the fiction section.

The author did not write the books for children specifically, that was the publishers decision, and as the books have progressed they have gotten distinctively darker and more openly occult in their content.

That's not quite true either. KJ Rowling said that, while she was writing the first book to in the language understood by the age of Harry, Rowling sayd "I didn't write with a target audience in mind." You make it sound like she was intending the audience to be adults who are into goth or something, and that's simply not the case. Also, at the time, she was writing two adult novels, which have to date been shelved, since she's discovered she's better at writing for a younger audience.

As far as the books becoming "darker", that's a matter of subjectivity. I've read most of the existing books, and as the characters become older, the writing style becomes more advanced, and less "backstory" and introduction are needed. I wouldn't necessarily say they become "darker" per se. The themes become a bit more grown up, but that doesn't necessarily equate to darker.

Now, if you want to talk about "darker" try reading some of Grimm's fairy tales. HP is nothing compared to the Brothers Grimm. They even have amputations and mutilations. HP is must more appropriate reading than Grimm, yet I won't be pulling the Grimm stories off my kids' shelves either.

 

[4-christ]

Thank you all for posting on this topic.

 

[dr396]

Superdave,

man I agree with you so much on this board on so many issues, but brother I think you are out there on this one. I have never seen anyone prove that anyone in Wicca actually uses the incantations and chants that Harry Potter does. It really makes a mockery of Wiccans. I have met a few in my lifetime and they are most certainly not like Harry or his friends. I think Borders is stupid to put it with the occult books, but likely it is a ploy to sell books. You are smart enough to know that Borders is not an expert on the occult or Harry Potter for that matter. And if they were so dark you would think that Christians who have read them or seen the movies would be spriritually affected by them. I have heard no such charge.

D.R.

 

[dr396]

And for the record, what does it matter whether I am for them or not? I don't care! I liked the movies, but I am not getting a march together to proclaim Harry Potter the greatest thing since sliced bread. I don't think this is a non-negotiable subject. If you want one of those go to the argument on Hell as eternal torture. That is something that is eternally important. I just want to insert some non-biased opinion in here and defend some friends who have read and watched the movies and see nothing wrong with them. Again, when one of the authors I read comes out harshly against Harry Potter, then I will take some serious notice (though that does not guarantee I will agree with them). So quit trying to put me in a camp that you can label!

D.R.

 

[superdave]

JohnV
You can disagree with me, or choose to be ignorant about the books, but please don't call me a liar, that really ends any discussion I would have chosen to have with you since you obviously will not take things at face value, even those you have no ability to dispute with facts. I can only report what I experienced. And some Wiccan groups did praise the books as a children's primer to Wicca. I know it is exaggerated, I am not trying to say that the events of the book could actually happen, but there is a basis in reality for much of the "magic" Rowling has talked about her research into real occult practices to help her write the books, its not all her imagination. I have read several books written about Harry Potter and all the authors I have read go way overboard in their attack on the books. I am not that crazy about it. Richard Abanes is about the closest to balanced about it, and he is out there a bit. He does have some good information, and large parts of his book were pretty good, but my concerns about the books go beyond the occult.

As for the darkness, yes I agree that is a subjective judgement on my part, and I choose not to allow my children to read the books at their age, when they are as old as Harry, I would hope they would be discerning enough to be able to read the books with a little guidance from their parents. I also don't let them read or watch Tolkien, or Grimm Fairy Tales yet, since they cannot make value judgements on them, and cannot understand much of the material. When they get older, it might be different.

The occult references were the minor concerns I had about the books anyway. The behaviour of the characters, and the moral relativism were much more obvious and dangerous IMO. In that way, the books fit well with the philosophy of most public schools.

I can find much more worthwhile reading material for my kids.

Dr,
I don't know that the claim can be made, but I also do not see anyone claiming that reading or watching Harry Potter is an activity that is glorifying to God, or that draws one closer to him. I would not have a problem with anyone who reads the books, or enjoys the movies, I would just encourage caution, just like anything else. I read the first 5 books to see what the fuss was all about. I didn't really think they were well written, and I certainly had no desire to stand in line to buy the next one. I have no problem with Christians reading the books, but a Christian who gets caught up the Harry Potter "craze" probably needs to evaluate their priorities.

Now when "The Return of the King" extended DVD comes out, I ...

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by superdave:
JohnV
You can disagree with me, or choose to be ignorant about the books, but please don't call me a liar,

I certainly don't mean to call you a liar. Please accept my apology for the implication. It certainly wasn't my intent. I do think there's a possibility of mistaken identity, so to speak. I called several Borders and B&N stores in my area, and asked them if they carried the HP series, and they said they could be found in the fiction sections.

And some Wiccan groups did praise the books as a children's primer to Wicca.

Likewise, some wiccan groups have said they the books make a mockery of their religion.

I have read several books written about Harry Potter and all the authors I have read go way overboard in their attack on the books.

That's been my experience as well (this is, unfortunately, often the case when the author is trying to sell a book about a topic, and alas, Christian folk are no exception to such tactics). This is one of the reasons I've set out to research and decide for myself, which is something I engourage everyone to do, and appears to be something you're rightfully done as well. Let each person be convinced to his own mind.

As for the darkness, yes I agree that is a subjective judgement on my part, and I choose not to allow my children to read the books at their age, when they are as old as Harry, I would hope they would be discerning enough to be able to read the books with a little guidance from their parents.

Certainly your right as a parent. Come to think of it, my children did not pick up one of the book until they were the age of the characters, so that issue was never one in my home. I have a 7 yo who's too young for that reading level.

I also don't let them read or watch Tolkien, or Grimm Fairy Tales yet, since they cannot make value judgements on them, and cannot understand much of the material. When they get older, it might be different.

Again, certainly wise parenting. And I appreciate that you're not "HP" selective, so to speak, as many well-meaning parents are.

I can find much more worthwhile reading material for my kids.

Well, I found myself saying the same thing when my oldest (now 16) was reading Goosebumps books at the age of 8 and 9. But my concerns, looking in hindsight, were not warranted.

Now when "The Return of the King" extended DVD comes out, I ...

Two words for you: PRE ORDER!!! I plan on doing that!

Is this a bad time to mention that I met Peter Jackson at an Oscar party??

 

[TLH]

I used to read my horoscope every day. Every day I would get the newspaper and immediately flip to the horoscope section and read.

Then, not long after I became a Christian, I was reading my bible. I was reading in Matthew (I think). There was a reference to Deuteronomy 18:9-12:

"9 When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. 10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, 11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD..."

The hair stood up on the back of my neck. I knew that God was telling me to AVOID all APPEARANCES of sorcery, fortune telling, witchcraft, wizardry, magic, horoscopes, etc. So I am not fanatical about AVOIDING even the APPEARANCE of ANY of these things. I do not watch HP movies or read the books because, to me (someone who has abosolutely NO knowledge of most of these things) Harry Potter looks like a movie about witchcraft and sorcery....God said not to partake of such. The same with the Lord of The Rings movies. The same with Mickey Mouse cartoons that show Mickey with his little wizard hat on waving his magic wand about, I avoid it.

"Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you..." (II Corinthians 6:17)

"Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God." (James 4:4)

"Abstain from all appearance of evil." (I Thessalonians 5:22)

 

[dr396]

TLH,

I think that is fine that you have taken a personal stand on those things in your own personal life, but be careful equating the context of Deut. with what is happening in modern culture. Those things spoken about in that passage were certainly cultic in nature. The people were acting in accordance with their religion, not in accordance with entertainment aspects. Not a one to one ratio here hermeneutically. Unless people worship Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, or Mickey Mouse and participate in watching them for spiritual reasons, then I don't think you have much of an argument from that text. But you do bring up a big point about LOTR having magic within it. We generally don't get fired up about that, so why poor Harry to pick on?

D.R.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by dr396:
But you do bring up a big point about LOTR having magic within it. We generally don't get fired up about that, so why poor Harry to pick on?

Not just that, but the "Mummy" and "Mummy Returns", Wnzard of Oz, at least one of the Indiana Jones films, Star Wars films, most Disney films like Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, The Little Mermaid, the Lion King, or Fantasia, and the most recent (and very successful) Battlestar Galactica. Not to mention any King Arthur film. I never realized Danny Kaye was in an occult film!!!

Now, I don't mean to say we shouldn't be concerned, but I don't think we get in the habit of tossing out babies with bathwater. Makes for poor discernment. As was said in an earlier post, waiting on material until our kids are at a discernable age is probably the most prudent cource of action for any parent. I wouldn't let my 7yo read Harry Potter, but I'd let my 13yo without hesitation. Likewise, I wouldn't let my 7yo watch "the Mummy" but my 16yo? Most certainly.