HCSB and Dan. 3:17

[EaglewingIS4031]

Now I like the HCSB, but some times I am puzzled by some of the "DE" renderings.

In Daniel 3:17 3 strong men of faith question the exitence of God, yet are risking their lives for this God?

Daniel 3:17 (HCSB)
If the God we serve exists, then He can rescue us from the furnace of blazing fire, and he can rescue us from the power of you, the king.

Daniel 3:17 (KJV)
If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.

Most other versions (i.e NASB,NKJV,ESV,RSV,) start the verse "If it be so..." it seems to ask Old Neb. that if he throws us in the furnace then our God can save us. Not if God exist then he can save us?
Why would the HCSB render it that way? Am I mistaken in thinking this is a poor rendering.

BTY I like the KJV just fine, but I am not KJO please do not try to convert me to one in this thread.
Thank-you <><
EagleWing

 

[AVL1984]

Eaglewing...I don't think you'll find many here who will try to convert you to KJVoism. I do believe however that eventually some KJV onlyist will try to derail the thread, as usually happens in this forum.

 

[Phillip]

Hi Eaglewing, I have my HCSB here at the office and yes, you have an interesting question. Although I took Hebrew (and Greek) courses at a seminary; I still have to struggle with text books. I would like to see the thoughts of some of our good Hebrew scholars regarding this verse.

How was the verse to be interpreted by a person reading Hebrew, back "in the day" (as my daughter says concerning my high-school days)?

Being that the HCSB is new, I would assume that, very much like the NKJV there will be a few weak spots and later versions will smooth them out.

This may actually be one of those rough spots.

But, sadly, if it is poor translation, it is not a good place or subject to be having a problem.

 

[Pastor Larry]

This is Aramaic, not Hebrew.

However, when it says "If it be so" what is "it"? Some say that the "it" is the existence of God that Nebuchadnezzar was denying (It if be so that God exists ...). Some say "it" is God's choice to deliver them (If it be so that our God desires to deliver us...). Some say that "it" is being thrown into the furnace (If it be so that we are thrown into the furnace...).

It is not entirely clear what is precisely correct, but all have basically the same idea. The point is that no matter what happens in God's plan, these three men will serve God anyway.

 

[west]

I can;t wait for the HCSB to come in a nice large print leather .

 

[Phillip]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
This is Aramaic, not Hebrew.

I'm confused, and I do not mean this to argue with you, I just don't understand.

"What" is Aramaic? The manuscripts that you are using to explain this? (If so, which manuscripts are they?)

What do Hebrew manuscripts say?

Are you simply using the Aramaic to show the answer?

 

[Phillip]

Dan 3:17

(ALT)

(ASV) If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace; and he will deliver us out of thy hand, O king.

(CEV) The God we worship can save us from you and your flaming furnace.

(Darby) If it be so , our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thy hand, O king.

(DRB) For behold our God, whom we worship, is able to save us from the furnace of burning fire, and to deliver us out of thy hands, O king.

(EMTV)

(ESV) If this be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of your hand, O king.

(GB) Beholde, our God whom we serue, is able to deliuer vs from the hote fierie fornace, and hee will deliuer vs out of thine hand, O King.

(GNT)

(KJV+) If2006 it be383 so, our God426 whom1768 we586 serve6399 is able3202 to deliver7804 us from4481 the burning3345 fiery5135 furnace,861 and he will deliver7804 us out of4481 thine hand,3028 O king.4430

(KJVA) If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.

(UPDV) If it is [so], our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace; and he will deliver us out of your hand, O king.

I just LOVE that E-Sword program!

 

[Phillip]

...interesting the Geneva and KJV differ at this point.

 

[Phillip]

Originally posted by west:
I can;t wait for the HCSB to come in a nice large print leather .

You AIN'T the only one needing large print these days!

 

[EaglewingIS4031]

Originally posted by west:
I can;t wait for the HCSB to come in a nice large print leather .

I was at LifeWay today, I saw the HCSB in duo tone leather, indexed, referenced and I think large print for about 52 bucks!

by Pastor Larry:
However, when it says "If it be so" what is "it"? Some say that the "it" is the existence of God that Nebuchadnezzar was denying (It if be so that God exists ...). Some say "it" is God's choice to deliver them (If it be so that our God desires to deliver us...). Some say that "it" is being thrown into the furnace (If it be so that we are thrown into the furnace...).

I have allways assumed "it" meant the sentence pronounced them by Nebuchadnezzar. Once again why would Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego question the existance of God? Aramaic & Hebrew is all Greek to me! But context would seem that "it" was the capital sentance pronounced in v. 15 not an ambivilant answer to King Neb's question of the 15th verse.

BTY I was mistaken earlier the NKJV starts the verse "If this be the case" Which also implies a refernce to the death sentance of v.15 not to the existance of God.
<><
EW

 

[EaglewingIS4031]

Hey Philip, what was the point of the e-sword post?
None of those versions listed questioned the existance of God, as the HCSB does. Is version marked (GB)the Geneva or the Great Bible? If it is the later, what does the Geneva say that is so interesting?

 

[Phillip]

Originally posted by Phillip:
Dan 3:17

(GB) Beholde, our God whom we serue, is able to deliuer vs from the hote fierie fornace, and hee will deliuer vs out of thine hand, O King.

(KJVA) If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.


I just LOVE that E-Sword program!

Geneva Bible 1599 Version.

It was a flippant remark for KJVonlys.

The KJV suggests a possiblity factor by stating that: "If it be so,"; whereas the Geneva doesn't seem to pose one.

Actually, the KJV is more "in-line" with the HCSB (you know, one of those MV's?) than the Geneva is.

 

[EaglewingIS4031]

Point taken and understood! But don't invite the KJO's to this party please.

 

[Pastor Larry]

"What" is Aramaic? The manuscripts that you are using to explain this? (If so, which manuscripts are they?)

What do Hebrew manuscripts say?

Are you simply using the Aramaic to show the answer?

Daniel is written partly in Hebrew and partly in Aramaic. Aramaic is a semitic language that was the language spoken by Christ. It came into use probably during the Babylonian captivity. I would have to check to be sure. I am going from memory here.

I believe the Hebrew starts back up in chapter 7. There are no "hebrew manuscripts" of this section.

As for the "it," I have leaned toward the "it" being God's desire to save them. If God desires, then he can deliver us; if he does not desire to deliver us, we will not bow down anyway.

I don't think the "sentence" works well because of the contrast. The "we will not bow down" implies that they will undergo the sentence and not back down even if God doesn't deliver them.

 

[Phillip]

Thank you Pastor, I didn't realize that Daniel was partially written in Aramaic. We learn something every day.

I understand now. I thought that you were using an Aramaic translation of a Hebrew manuscript to explain your point. I honestly didn't understand "why" Aramaic.

Thank you for your patience explaining this to this "Okie dummy." (Not a dummy because I'm Okie, there are lots of smart folks here, like Ed and RSR, just that I'm a dummie from Okie.)

Wow, I need to shut this computer off, go home and eat supper.

 

[EaglewingIS4031]

Originally posted by Phillip:


Thank you for your patience explaining this to this "Okie dummy." (Not a dummy because I'm Okie, there are lots of smart folks here, like Ed and RSR, just that I'm a dummie from Okie.)

Wow, I need to shut this computer off, go home and eat supper.

I hear that some people in Oklahoma are not only smart, but they know how to play football too!
'cept last January!

 

[EaglewingIS4031]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:

As for the "it," I have leaned toward the "it" being God's desire to save them. If God desires, then he can deliver us; if he does not desire to deliver us, we will not bow down anyway.

I don't think the "sentence" works well because of the contrast. The "we will not bow down" implies that they will undergo the sentence and not back down even if God doesn't deliver them. [/QB]

I thougt the "it" refered to the consequences in v. 15 because of the NIV.
Dan. 3:17 (NIV)
If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to save us from it, and he will rescue us from your hand, O king

Oh! No! Oh! No! I can't get the worms back in...I opened the can and the worms won't go back in!

Seriously! I'm not the only one who thought it refered to Neb's death sentence.
Once again why does the HCSB have our 3 heros questioning the existance of God?

<><
EW

 

[Michael52]

According to the Strongs (and NASB) concordance, it seems the tranlation in the HCSB is possible if translated in a very literal sense.

Dan 3:17 <If> <there is> OR <be> OR <exists>...
Dan 3:18 <If> <not>...

IMHO (very humble) the context seems to rule against the HCSB's rendering or what it "seems" to imply.

(NASB)
Dan 3:15 "Now if you are ready, at the moment you hear the sound of the horn, flute, lyre, trigon, psaltery and bagpipe and all kinds of music, to fall down and worship the image that I have made, very well. But if you do not worship, you will immediately be cast into the midst of a furnace of blazing fire; and what god is there who can deliver you out of my hands?"
Dan 3:16 Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego replied to the king, "O Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to give you an answer concerning this matter.
Dan 3:17 "If it be [so], our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the furnace of blazing fire; and He will deliver us out of your hand, O king.
Dan 3:18 "But [even] if [He does] not, let it be known to you, O king, that we are not going to serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up."

It seems to me the three are answering the question King Neb. asked in verse 15.

Paraphrasing - very "loosely"

Neb.: "What god can deliver you three out of the hurtin' I'm going to give you"?
Three: "If there is a god who can deliver us, it is our God who can. But if He doesn't deliver us, we are still not going to worship your stinkin' image!"

If all this seems clear - as mud, at least it helps me to appreciate the quandry Bible translators are faced with in trying to make sense from one language to another.

 

[Pastor Larry]

It could be that "it" refers to his throwing them in the furnace. I don't think so because I don't think that makes the contrast of "serving God in any event" meaningful. I think it makes more sense the other way. But it is a relatively minor point.

As for questioning the existence, I don't think it must be read that way. Remember, Neb was questioning the existence, and the three could have been saying "For the sake of argument ..." as we often do, although we do not grant the premise. It was set up as a contest between God and Neb's gods.

 

[EaglewingIS4031]

Thank-You Michael and Larry, ya'll make some good points. An answer to what I asked in the topic opener, maybe the HCSB doesn't do such a poor translation job on Dan.3:17 and I was mistaken.

But I still think the "it" should have been left alone and left to the interpretation of the reader and not the SBC translators of the HCSB.

<><
EagleWing