1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

He cometh with clouds . . . .

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by 37818, Nov 26, 2023.

  1. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    15,620
    Likes Received:
    1,229
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Acts of the Apostles 1:9-11, ". . . And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. . . ."

    Matthew 24:30, ". . . And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. . . ."

    1 Thessalonians 4:17, ". . . Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. . . ."

    Matthew 24:27, ". . . For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. . . ."

    Revelation 1:7, " . . . Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. . . ."
     
  2. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,322
    Likes Received:
    449
    Faith:
    Baptist
    These three are about Jesus' Second Coming:
    from: Revelation 1 Bible Commentary - John Gill’s Exposition of the Bible

    "it is better therefore to understand this of Christ's second coming to judge the quick and dead, which is represented as just at hand, to denote the certainty of it; and a "behold" is prefixed to it, to excite attention, and to denote the importance of it: things of great moment, and very surprising, will then be done;

    "Christ will appear in great glory and majesty, the dead in Christ will
    be raised, Christ's personal kingdom will take place, and the general judgment come on.


    "The manner of his coming will be "with clouds"; either figuratively, with angels, who will attend him both for grandeur and service, or literally, in the clouds of heaven; he shall descend in like manner as he ascended, and as Daniel prophesied he should, Daniel 7:13.

    "I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him."

    "Hence, one of the names of the Messiah, with the Jews, is, ynne, "Anani" {r}, which signifies "clouds"; and his coming is so described, both to denote the grand and magnificent manner, in which he will come, making the clouds his chariots;

    "and to strike terror into his enemies, clouds and darkness being about him, thunder and lightning breaking out of them, as tokens of that vengeance he comes to take upon them;

    "as also the visibility of his coming, he shall descend from the third heaven, where he now is, into the airy heaven, and sit upon the clouds, as on his throne, and be visible to all:"
    ...

    These two from Matthew are just before the Destruction of Jerusalem:
    Since both of these are in the passages referring to the time before the destruction of Jerusalem, their meaning must be derived in that fashion.

    From: Matthew 24 Bible Commentary - John Gill’s Exposition of the Bible

    "he shall appear, not in person, but in the power of his wrath and vengeance, on the Jewish nation which will be a full sign and proof of his being come:

    "for the sense is, that when the above calamities shall be upon the civil state of that people, and there will be such changes in their ecclesiastical state it will be as clear a point, that Christ is come in the flesh, and that he is also come in his vengeance on that nation, for their rejection and crucifixion him, as if they had seen him appear in person in the heavens.

    "They had been always seeking a sign, and were continually asking one of him; and now they will have a sign with a witness;"


    Note: "this sign is not said to be sounded, but to appear, or to be seen, which does not agree with the sounding of a trumpet:

    "much less can this design the last trumpet at the day of judgment, since of that the text does not speak;

    "and, for the same reason, the clouds cannot be meant in which Christ will come to judgment, nor are clouds in themselves any sign of it: nor the latter, of which there is no hint in the word of God, nor any reason to expect it, nor any foundation for it;

    "nor is any miraculous star intended, such as appeared at Christ's first coming, but the son of man himself:

    "just as circumcision is called the sign of circumcision, Romans 4:11

    "and Christ is sometimes called a sign, Luke 2:34

    "as is his resurrection from the dead, Matthew 12:39

    "and here the glory and majesty in which he shall come: and it may be observed, that the other evangelists make no mention of the sign, only speak of the son of man, Mark 13:26

    "his coming in his wrath and vengeance to destroy that people, their nation, city, and temple:

    "so that after this to look for the Messiah in a desert or secret chamber, must argue great stupidity and blindness;

    "when his coming was as sudden, visible, powerful, and general, to the destruction of that nation, as the lightning that comes from the east, and, in a moment, shines to the west."

    Note: "which must be understood not of his last coming to judgment, though that will be sudden, visible, and universal;

    "he will at once come to, and be seen by all, in the clouds of heaven, and not in deserts and secret chambers:

    "nor of his spiritual coming in the more sudden, and clear, and powerful preaching of the Gospel all over the Gentile world; for this was to be done before the destruction of Jerusalem:"
     
  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    15,620
    Likes Received:
    1,229
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Those references I cited are about one event. Post-trib pre-wrath resurrection and rapture.
     
  4. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,322
    Likes Received:
    449
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Oh. I see the tribulation that the Jews experienced in AD 70 being spoken of in all the verses in Matthew 24 that mention tribulation and those verses like Mark 4:17 and John 16:33 are referring to tribulation in our present age, of course.

    I see Matthew 24:4-24:14, as the answer Jesus gave to the first question by the Apostles:
    Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen,"

    Then Matthew 24:15-34, being His answer to their second question;
    "and what will be the sign of Your coming" (this is with regard to Jesus coming Providentially in Judgment, using the Roman soldiers.)

    The third question is answered by Jesus in Matthew 24:35-51.
    "what will be the sign... of the end of the age?”

    I sure don't see those five as being one event. Of course, I don't see a "Trib" period, Post-trib pre-wrath resurrection and rapture.

    I see Jesus returning at the End of the Age, in Judgment, wrath, resurrection, and rapture, as one event, though. One time. Jesus' Return. Immediately. Any second.

    It's just not talked about in Matthew 24, until Matthew 24:35.

    Jesus' One Second Coming and the End of the World
    (no more chance for anyone to be saved).

    35 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.

    36 No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

    37 As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man.

    38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark.

    39 And they were oblivious, until the flood came and swept them all away.
    So will it be at the coming of the Son of Man.

    40 Two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.

    41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.

    42 Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day on which your Lord will come. etc., etc.
     
  5. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    15,620
    Likes Received:
    1,229
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I do not, per Matthew 24:21, ". . . For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. . . ." Which has not yet happened!
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    15,620
    Likes Received:
    1,229
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Well, not all that hold a post-trib view agree either. Nor do all that hold to a post-trib pre-wrath all agree on everything. There are nevertheless certain teachings which have only one time events. Hebrews 9:28, Titus 2:13, Revelation 1:7, and Revelation 20:5-6.
     
  7. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,322
    Likes Received:
    449
    Faith:
    Baptist
    from: Matthew 24:21 - John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

    For then shall be great tribulation,.... This is urged as a reason for their speedy flight; since the calamity that would come upon those who should remain in the city, what through the sword, famine, pestilence, murders, robberies, c. would

    be such as was not since the beginning of the world, to this time, no, nor ever shall be. The burning of Sodom and Gomorrha, the bondage of the children of Israel in Egypt, their captivity in Babylon, and all their distresses and afflictions in the times of the Maccabees, are nothing to be compared with the calamities which befell the Jews in the siege and destruction of Jerusalem. Great desolations have been made in the besieging and at the taking of many famous cities, as Troy, Babylon, Carthage, c. but none of them are to be mentioned with the deplorable case of this city. Whoever reads Josephus's account will be fully convinced of this and readily join with him, who was an eyewitness of it, when he says m, that

    "never did any city suffer such things, nor was there ever any generation that more abounded in malice or wickedness.''

    And indeed, all this came upon them for their impenitence and infidelity, and for their rejection and murdering of the Son of God for as never any before, or since, committed the sin they did, or ever will, so there never did, or will, the same calamity befall a nation, as did them.

    m De Bello Jud. l. 6. c. 11.
     
  8. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    15,620
    Likes Received:
    1,229
    Faith:
    Baptist
  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    15,620
    Likes Received:
    1,229
    Faith:
    Baptist
  10. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,322
    Likes Received:
    449
    Faith:
    Baptist
    These all do describe the End of the World.

    No 7 yr. or 3 1/2 yr. thing, or other time period other than in Revelation 20:6; "but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years", talks about what is going on now, as we reign with Christ during this New Testament Era of The Age of Churches. Then, the first resurrection is at the end of this Era, the Present Age of Churches. Then, that is the End of the World. It could be tonight.

    If the Book of Revelation is structured in these seven sections, with each being a different vision of the entire Age of Churches, then to read Revelation chronologically from chapter 1 on through to 22, is going to result in just what we have. Satan confusing everybody in every direction.

    From Alan's Eschatological Laboratory;

    See more at: Amillennialism | Monergism

    "The system of interpretation of the book of Revelation which seems most satisfactory to me... is that known as progressive parallelism, ably defended by William Hendriksen in More Than Conquerors, his commentary on Revelation.2

    "According to this view, the book of Revelation consists of seven sections which run parallel to each other, each of which depicts the church and the world from the time of Christ’s first coming to the time of his second.

    "The first of these seven sections is found in chapters 1-3.

    John sees the risen and glorified Christ walking in the midst of seven golden lampstands. In obedience to Christ’s command John now proceeds to write letters to each of the seven churches of Asia Minor. The vision of the glorified Christ together with the letters to the seven churches obviously form a unit. As we read these letters we are impressed with two things.

    First, there are references to events, people and places of the time when the book of Revelation was written.

    Second
    , the principles, commendations and warnings contained in these letters have value for the church of all time. These two observations, in fact, provide a clue for the interpretation of the entire book. Since the book of Revelation was addressed to the church of the first century A.D., its message had reference to events occurring at that time and was therefore meaningful for the Christians of that day. But since the book was also intended for the church through the ages, its message is still relevant for us today.

    "The second of these seven sections is the vision of the seven seals found in chapters 4-7. John is caught up to heaven and sees God sitting on his radiant throne. He then sees the Lamb that had been slain taking the scroll sealed with seven seals from the hand of the one who was sitting on the throne. The various seals are broken, and various divine judgments on the world are described. In this vision we see the church suffering trial and persecution against the background of the victory of Christ.

    The third section, found in chapters 8-11, describes the seven trumpets of judgment. In this vision we see the church avenged, protected and victorious.

    The fourth section, chapters 12-14, begins with the vision of the woman giving birth to a son while the dragon waits to devour him as soon as he is born—an obvious reference to the birth of Christ. The rest of the section describes the continued opposition of the dragon (who stands for Satan) to the church. This section also introduces us to the two beasts who are the dragon’s helpers: the beast out of the sea and the beast out of the earth.

    The fifth section is found in chapters 15-16. It describes the seven bowls of wrath, thus depicting in a very graphic way the final visitation of God’s wrath on those who remain impenitent.

    The sixth section, chapters 17-19, describes the fall of Babylon and of the beasts. Babylon stands for the worldly city — the forces of secularism and godlessness which are in opposition to the kingdom of God. The end of chapter 19 depicts the fall and final punishment of the dragon’s two helpers: the beast out of the sea, and the false prophet, who appears to be identified with the beast out of the earth (see 16:13).

    The seventh section, chapters 20-22, narrates the doom of the dragon, thus completing the description of the overthrow of the enemies of Christ. In addition, it describes the final judgment, the final triumph of Christ and his church, and the renewed universe, here called the new heaven and the new earth.

    "Note that though these seven sections are parallel to each other, they also reveal a certain amount of eschatological progress.

    "The last section, for example, takes us further into the future than the other sections.

    "Although the final judgment has already been announced in 1:7 and has been briefly described in 6:12-17, it is not set forth in full detail until we come to 20:11-15.

    "Though the final joy of the redeemed in the life to come has been hinted at in 7:15-17, it is not until we reach chapter 21 that we find a detailed and elaborate description of the blessedness of life on the new earth (21:1-22:5). Hence this method of interpretation is called progressive parallelism.

    "There is eschatological progression in these seven sections, not only regarding the individual sections but also regarding the book as a whole.

    "If we grant that the book of Revelation depicts the struggle between Christ and his church on the one hand and the enemies of Christ and the church on the other, we may say that the first half of the book (chapters 1-11) describes the struggle on earth, picturing the church as it is persecuted by the world.

    The second half of the book, however (chapters 12-22), gives us the deeper spiritual background of this struggle, describing the persecution of the church by the dragon (Satan) and his helpers. In the light of this analysis we see how the last section of the book (chapters 20-22) falls into place.

    "This last section describes the judgment which falls on Satan, and his final doom. Since Satan is the supreme opponent of Christ, it stands to reason that his doom should be narrated last."

    Then, he discusses Revelation 20.

    The main reason Revelation is confused, is because of what we just said, Satan's "doom" is described for all to see!!
     
  11. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,322
    Likes Received:
    449
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You may find one or more other people or writers that have been shown the embedded message within the wording of Matthew 24.

    Josephus was one. And he was a First-hand eye-witness.

    "Whoever reads Josephus's account will be fully convinced of this and readily join with him, who was an eyewitness of it, when he says, that

    "never did any city suffer such things, nor was there ever any generation that more abounded in malice or wickedness.''
     
  12. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,322
    Likes Received:
    449
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yep. This is the End of the World, right smack dab in the middle of the first chapter of Revelation.

    There is a discription of the End of the World in each of the seven sections, i.e., each of the visions. Most have their own discription of the Ascension of Christ you allude to next.

    From the time of Jesus' Ascension, at His First Coming, until the Return of Jesus as they saw Him go, at Jesus' Second Coming, is what is described within each vision, each from a little more and more detailed account.

    There are seven visions told, which all cover the same time period.

    It's a Revelation!!!
     
  13. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    15,620
    Likes Received:
    1,229
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Simple.

    Does not negate the explicit meaning of "tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." Nor the explicit fact "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him." Has yet to happen.
     
  14. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    15,620
    Likes Received:
    1,229
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Simple.
    Matthew 24:21 has not happened.
    Revelation 1:7 has not happened.
     
  15. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,322
    Likes Received:
    449
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yeah, it is the exact Desolation of Abomination upon the Jews to completely end their economy of worship in the Temple, as judgment for killing Jesus.

    1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

    2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

    3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

    4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

    15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

    16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

    17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

    18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

    19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

    20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

    21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

    22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

    34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    The Bible fits itself together perfectly, like a hand in a glove, if you let it.

    No, the End of the World has not happened yet, but "There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down", as shown above, has.
     
  16. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,322
    Likes Received:
    449
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Daniel and Jesus called it, "The Desolation of Abomination".

    The Jews wound up "carcases" to the Roman "Eagles".

    Tell them that there will be explicitly more tribulation sometime.

    Just don't tell Jesus.

    Revelation 1:7 and Matthew 24 both have the word, ,"clouds", in them.

    Matthew 24:4-34 and everything depicted in them have happened.

    Revelation 1:7 has not.
     
  17. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,322
    Likes Received:
    449
    Faith:
    Baptist
  18. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,322
    Likes Received:
    449
    Faith:
    Baptist
  19. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    19,363
    Likes Received:
    2,861
    Faith:
    Baptist
    In the Jew's 'world', to who that was addressed, it was indeed "tribulation as has never been seen before and shall not be seen again". It was literally the end of the Jew's world, i.e., the Mosaic economy.
     
  20. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    19,363
    Likes Received:
    2,861
    Faith:
    Baptist
    1st and 3rd verses says it's already happened.
     
Loading...