Hebrew Word Study - "Kaphar" (Strong's H3722)

[Ben1445]

When God says punishing the innocent and clearing the guilty are alike abominations to Him, well, I believe Him.

Well then you must be most miserable because you are guilty and will never be cleared but by an abomination to God.

Like when Jesus took the penalty for sin, the curse on Himself.


Galatians 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Deuteronomy 22:22-23
And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree: His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.


Jesus was arrested. That is what happens to criminals.
Jesus was tried. That is what happens to criminals.
Jesus was executed. That is what happens to criminals.
The execution is the penalty. You know, for criminals.

None of this was because He was a criminal. It was because He gave Himself as a ransom. (A ransom is a payment that happens in an exchange where you give satisfactory payment for usually the life of a hostage)

Jesus is the scapegoat and the sacrifice.

 

[JonC]

Well then you must be most miserable because you are guilty and will never be cleared but by an abomination to God.

It does not matter how I feel. Those are God's words. He will not clear the guilty and He will not punish the Just.

But I am not miserable at all because I do not want the "guilty me" to be cleared. I want that "old man" to perish and for me to be made a new creation, conformed into the image of Christ.

 

[Ben1445]

I have provided verses stating what occurred at the Day of Atonement. At a minimum we know there was no substitution involved (by the text).

It is for the people.

An offering, atonement, sacrifice,… they are all to appease. The purpose of them is so that the people are not judged as they ought to be judged, but are instead given mercy.

If you cannot grasp that you will never understand the sacrificial system.

 

[Ben1445]

It does not matter how I feel. Those are God's words. He will not clear the guilty and He will not punish the Just.

But I am not miserable at all because I do not want the "guilty me" to be cleared. I want that "old man" to perish and for me to be made a new creation, conformed into the image of Christ.

But you are still retaining your same person I. You cannot ever be cleared. That would be an abomination.

Unless of course Christ died for you and you were buried with Him. Obviously not physically with Him. And since you were not there, Jesus must be your substitute and represent you in it.

 

[JonC]

Jesus was arrested. That is what happens to criminals.
Jesus was tried. That is what happens to criminals.
Jesus was executed. That is what happens to criminals.
The execution is the penalty. You know, for criminals.

None of this was because He was a criminal.

Yes, Jesus assumed the curse of the Law. You continued on like I had not agreed with that.

And yes, Jesus was (as Luke wrote) a victim of "unjust judgment". But we knew this already because Isaiah said His death was "oppression" (by an unrighteous authority/ power). And, obviously, God identified this unrighteous power early on when He said Satan would "crush" Him.

But this was all in accordance with God's predetermined plan. This "crushing" was God's will as it achieved His purposes.

 

[Ben1445]

Yes, Jesus assumed the curse of the Law. You continued on like I had not agreed with that.

And yes, Jesus was (as Luke wrote) a victim of "unjust judgment". But we knew this already because Isaiah said His death was "oppression" (by an unrighteous authority/ power). And, obviously, God identified this unrighteous power early on when He said Satan would "crush" Him.

But this was all in accordance with God's predetermined plan. This "crushing" was God's will as it achieved His purposes.

So God’s plan was an abomination to Him?

 

[JonC]

But you are still retaining your same person I. You cannot ever be cleared. That would be an abomination.

At this moment, yes. At Judgment, no. I will be made a new creation in Christ.

It is the righteous of God manifested apart from the law. It fulfills the law (the Righteous are not punished and the wicked are not cleared), but not through the law itself.

But you have a good point. To believe God will clear the guilty or has punished the Just would mean they worship another god because their god has a different nature (their god would be an abomination to our God).

 

[JonC]

So God’s plan was an abomination to Him?

Not God's plan according to the Bible, but your idea of God's plan is an abomination to Him.

Look...I did not make up those words. God said them, not me. He said them more than once. Your theory does make God unjust according to God's own words.

@Anthony Pritchard gave very good advice when he said the biblical text is limiting.

It sets boundaries we cannot cross with our theories. Like guardrails for our understanding.

We know from the biblical text (short list)

1. God is righteous. He is just.
2. God will never clear the guilty.
3. God will never punish the righteous.
4. God will punish the wicked.
5. God will never abandon the righteous.
6. God is faithful. He will never lie.

Those are some unchangeable facts we can use as guardrails. Whatever our understanding is, it has to remain within the boundaries of the biblical text or it is wrong.

 

[Ben1445]

At this moment, yes. At Judgment, no. I will be made a new creation in Christ.

It is the righteous of God manifested apart from the law. It fulfills the law (the Righteous are not punished and the wicked are not cleared), but not through the law itself.

But you have a good point.

It’s not my point it’s yours. And of course you like it. I just repeated what you said. But it doesn’t help you think through your own thoughts when you hear them so I don’t know why I try.

To believe God will clear the guilty or has punished the Just would mean they worship another god because their god has a different nature (their god would be an abomination to our God).

So you will never be cleared. You have no hope of salvation. It cannot be you who will be imputed righteous, it must be another new creature but not you.

 

[JonC]

It is for the people.

An offering, atonement, sacrifice,… they are all to appease.

No, not according to the biblical text.

"for it is on this day that atonement shall be made for you to cleanse you; you will be clean from all your sins before the Lord" (Lev 16:30)

The God of the Bible is just. Unlike the neighboring pagan cultures the Hebrew people did not view it possible to appease God. Why? Because God is righteous.

According to the biblical text atonenent is made to cleanse ftom sin (sin defiles). This is the same in the NT as it is the blood of Christ that cleanses from all unrighteousness.

According to Scripture atonement is not forgiveness. The shedding of blood is necessary because atonement is necessary (one must be purified before sins can be forgiven).

This parallels what God stated as His criteria for forgiveness (repentance, new heart). We are changed before we are forgiven. If you are a thief and ask for forgiveness while still being a thief you are not forgiven (no change, no purification, no repentance).

 

[Ben1445]

1. God is righteous. He is just.

Good.

2. God will never clear the guilty.

Romans 4:8
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.


and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

3. God will never punish the righteous.

Christ the righteous was “wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities:”

and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

4. God will punish the wicked.

1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

5. God will never abandon the righteous.

Matthew 27:46
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

6. God is faithful. He will never lie.

But if you don’t understand what He is saying, you may think that you understand but have just created your own gospel and not the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[JonC]

It’s not my point it’s yours. And of course you like it. I just repeated what you said. But it doesn’t help you think through your own thoughts when you hear them so I don’t know why I try.


So you will never be cleared. You have no hope of salvation. It cannot be you who will be imputed righteous, it must be another new creature but not you.

You are arguing from your theory rather than Scripture. You are misding the point.

God - not me but God - said it is evil to punish the innocent and it is an abomination to Him to punish the Just. God said He will never clear the guilty and it is an abomination to clear the guilty.

God said that. Do not attribute it to me.

What you reject is God's own words about justice. You also reject that God will actually make us new creations, actually destroy the "guilty man".

But the Bible states otherwise. It is a righteousness of God manifested apart from the law. We must die. The old us must die. The guilty us must die.

Not only do I believe God will make me a new creation (no longer the guilty me that sinned), but I believe God will conform me into the image of Christ. I believe I will be glorified.

I know that is against your belief. I cannot help that. But those are God's words.

Your argument is with God, not me.

 

[Ben1445]

No, not according to the biblical text.

Not according to you.

"for it is on this day that atonement shall be made for you to cleanse you; you will be clean from all your sins before the Lord" (Lev 16:30)

The God of the Bible is just. Unlike the neighboring pagan cultures the Hebrew people did not view it possible to appease God. Why? Because God is righteous.

Then why Can Jesus appease God? Why is Christ’s death an atonement?

According to the biblical text atonenent is made to cleanse ftom sin (sin defiles). This is the same in the NT as it is the blood of Christ that cleanses from all unrighteousness.

Right. The just for the unjust. That is substitution.

According to Scripture atonement is not forgiveness. The shedding of blood is necessary because atonement is necessary (one must be purified before sins can be forgiven).

And atonement accomplishes appeasement.
Forgiveness comes with belief when faith applies the blood of the sacrifice.

It was either the lamb or the firstborn. That is an exchange. Life for life.

This parallels what God stated as His criteria for forgiveness (repentance, new heart). We are changed before we are forgiven. If you are a thief and ask for forgiveness while still being a thief you are not forgiven (no change, no purification, no repentance).

 

[Ben1445]

You are arguing from your theory rather than Scripture. You are misding the point.

God - not me but God - said it is evil to punish the innocent and it is an abomination to Him to punish the Just. God said He will never clear the guilty and it is an abomination to clear the guilty.

God said that. Do not attribute it to me.

What you reject is God's own words about justice. You also reject that God will actually make us new creations, actually destroy the "guilty man".

But the Bible states otherwise. It is a righteousness of God manifested apart from the law. We must die. The old us must die. The guilty us must die.

Not only do I believe God will make me a new creation (no longer the guilty me that sinned), but I believe God will conform me into the image of Christ. I believe I will be glorified.

I know that is against your belief. I cannot help that. But those are God's words.

Your argument is with God, not me.

I am arguing with your theory. I haven’t disagreed with Scripture, just your theory.

 

[Ben1445]

Your argument is with God, not me.

In that case, don’t butt in. You do nothing but confuse the issues. You don’t even agree with yourself.

 

[JonC]

Good.


Romans 4:8
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.


and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Christ the righteous was “wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities:”

and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.


1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.



Matthew 27:46
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?


But if you don’t understand what He is saying, you may think that you understand but have just created your own gospel and not the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Oh. I understand what He is saying. It is very clear. He will not punish the Just, He will not punish the Righteous, He will not clear the guilty.

There is no way to mistake those words.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is that the kingdom of which the OT was modeled to foreshadow has come (the Kingdom of God).

There are no passages that state Jesus is our penal substitute. Yet that is what you believe. Why?

 

[Ben1445]

Oh. I understand what He is saying. It is very clear. He will not punish the Just, He will not punish the Righteous, He will not clear the guilty.

There is no way to mistake those words.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is that the kingdom of which the OT was modeled to foreshadow has come (the Kingdom of God).

There are no passages that state Jesus is our penal substitute. Yet that is what you believe. Why?

Surely he hath borne our griefs,
and carried our sorrows:
yet we did esteem him stricken,
smitten of God, and afflicted.
But he was wounded for our transgressions,
he was bruised for our iniquities:
the chastisement of our peace was upon him;
and with his stripes we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned every one to his own way;
and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

You see the words but they don’t mean anything to you.

 

[JonC]

I am arguing with your theory. I haven’t disagreed with Scripture, just your theory.

Lets see.

1. You believe that God will never punish the Righteous. You believe that Jesus is Righteous.

Do you believe that Jesus suffered God's punishment?

2. You believe that sins cannot be transfered from a person. The person who sins shall die.

Do you believe that our sins were transferred to us and put on Jesus?

3. You believe that God will never clear the guilty.

Do you believe God ever clears the guilty?


If you answered "yes" or have to explain away those passages then you reject God's words.

 

[JonC]

Surely he hath borne our griefs,
and carried our sorrows:
yet we did esteem him stricken,
smitten of God, and afflicted.
But he was wounded for our transgressions,
he was bruised for our iniquities:
the chastisement of our peace was upon him;
and with his stripes we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned every one to his own way;
and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

You see the words but they don’t mean anything to you.

No, I believe they mean exactly what they state.

That is the difference between our views. You believe that chapter teaches something other than the words state. I believe the chapter teaches "what is written", the biblical text.

Obviously they esteemed Him stricken by God but He was wounded for their transgressions. Obviously they viewed Him as afflicted. Otherwise they would not have killed Him.

Obviously He was wounded for our sins. He is sinless and bore our sins bodily.

Obviously crushing Him was God's will. He was obedient even unto death.


BUT what is missing?

Jesus bring our penal substitute. That is foreign to the Bible.

I agree that PSA theorists believe much of the Bible (maybe even most of the Bible). The problem is not the parts of the Bible PSA theorists believe but the parts they work around and the parts of their belief that is not in the Bible.

Every Christian heresy is 90% truth. It is that 10% that makes it a heresy. PSA is no exception.

 

[JonC]

Not according to you.


Then why Can Jesus appease God? Why is Christ’s death an atonement?


Right. The just for the unjust. That is substitution.


And atonement accomplishes appeasement.
Forgiveness comes with belief when faith applies the blood of the sacrifice.

It was either the lamb or the firstborn. That is an exchange. Life for life.

Atonement is not appeasement per the biblical text. It was to the pagan religions but to the Hebrews God was completey righteous and holy (above appeasment being possible).

At the Passover it was not a lamb or the firstborn. It was the blood of the lamb God saw and death passed over. A family could kill 20 Lambs yet fail to apply the blood and the firstborn die.

Same with the Levitical system. It is never the life taken but the life applied.