Hebrews 1:3

[gb93433]

I take the position that you cnnot accurately translate anything until you know the source culture and the receptor culture. This involves the settings of both the source language and the receptor language.

The NIV I believe takes liberties I am not always comfortable with such as Amos 4:4. You won't find it in the MT or LXX.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Every single language professor I have ever had has preferred the NIV primarily because of its clarity and accuracy. These are men who have spent their lives in the study of the original languages.

If this is true, you didn’t go to very good schools. And it is very clear that you did not study language structure and translation theory, because if you had, you would understand the difference between DE translation theory and FE translation theory in their application to the translation of culturally limited idioms.

And you would also understand the difference between complex language structure and complex grammar. The best example in the New Testament of complex language structure using non-complex grammar is found in Eph. 1:3-14. This entire passage is structurally and grammatically one sentence with one primary clause and many subordinate clauses. The NIV makes a mockery of this sentence.

Reading your post, one might think that you believe that the language of the Bible is exclusively idiomatic. It is not! And the idioms that are used in it should NEVER be translated according DE translation theory, but according to FE translation theory as properly applied to idioms. The example that you quoted concerning the age of an individual is a good example of the application of FE translation theory to an idiom. The FE equivalent of “How old are you?” is “How many years do you have?” Anyone who believes that this is an application of DE (as used by the translators of the NIV) rather than FE theory does not understand either of these theories; nor do they understand the translation principles behind the NIV.

However, putting all of this aside, does the NIV restrict its use of DE to idioms? The answer, indisputably, is No, it does not! Does this make the NIV easier to understand than the NASB? Yes it does, but what the readers are understanding is something quite different than what the Bible says in the original languages. If you do not see these differences, and some people don’t, the reason why is simple—you are not understanding either what the Bible says in the original language, nor what the NIV says.

 

[Craigbythesea]

A clarifying note:

A common misconception about FE (Formal Equivalence) translation is that it is the same as word-for-word translation. It is not. In the case of idioms, when there are formally equivalent idioms in both the donor (original) language and the receptor language, an FE translation of that idiom will always use that formally equivalent idiom rather an a DE (Dynamically Equivalent) word or phrase that is different from the formally equivalent idiom.

 

[Pastor Larry]

I went to very good schools with men who know what they are talking about. Their knowledge of language is not a hobby. It is a life.

I am well aware of both complex grammar and language structure. I think you are very misguided on your understanding of these things. You seem to have taken a very radical position that most in language studies would not even come close to. But ... whatever ...

What people need to understand is that the NIV can be trusted and used with great confidence. It is not my favorite translation for preaching or study, but it is a very good one. Use it with other good translations such as the NASB, or the NKJV, or the ESV.

 

[Craigbythesea]

I do not know where you found “good schools” where ALL the professors found the NIV to be an accurate translation . But of course the terms “good” and “accurate” are relative terms. Certainly compared with the CEV, the NIV is an accurate translation; but compared with the KJV, the RV, the ASV, the NRSV, and the NASB it is a very inaccurate translation. Some people think that Waterford crystal is “good” crystal, but compared with Baccarat crystal, it is junk! But, of course, Baccarat crystal costs ten times as much . But, amazingly enough, the NASB doesn’t cost any more than the NIV, and if one is hard-up for cash, a NASB Bible can be purchased in a thrift store for no more than a few dollars

. Some people, however, who collect novelties, may want to purchase an NIV .

Just last night I was visiting one of my tenants and we got into a conversation about the differences between the Greek and English present indicative tense and the relevance of these differences to soteriology as it is taught in the New Testament. My tenant uses the NIV as his primary study Bible, but has noticed its lack of precision and peculiar renderings, so we were looking at how it deals with the present indicative in New Testament passages that are important to soteriology. One of the verses that we looked at was Colossians 1:23 and my tenant was very disappointed to read that the NIV uses the expression “your faith” rather than “the faith.” Although I am very much aware of many of the problems in the NIV, I had not noticed this one before. As my tenant expressed it, there if a very big difference between these two expressions. “Your faith” is a relative faith; “the faith” is an absolute faith.

The expression “the faith” is frequently used in the New Testament and other Christian literature as a designation of the Christian faith, and I believe that it is so used in Colossians 1:23, and their substitution of “your faith” not only weakens the passage, but it changes its meaning. There is no textual justification for this. The Greek texts all (as far as I know) have the definite article here without the personal pronoun. Other translations read here,

-- King James
Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

-- New King James
Colossians 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

-- American Standard
Colossians 1:23 if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven; whereof I Paul was made a minister.

-- Revised Standard
Colossians 1:23 provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

-- International English
Colossians 1:23 But, you must stay rooted and grounded in the faith. Don't be moved away from the hope of the Good News that you heard. It was preached to every person under heaven. I, Paul, am a minister of this gospel.

-- New American Standard
Colossians 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

-- New Jerusalem
Colossians 1:23 as long as you persevere and stand firm on the solid base of the faith, never letting yourselves drift away from the hope promised by the gospel, which you have heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become the servant.

-- New American
Colossians 1:23 provided that you persevere in the faith, firmly grounded, stable, and not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, am a minister.

-- New Revised Standard
Colossians 1:23 provided that you continue securely established and steadfast in the faith, without shifting from the hope promised by the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven. I, Paul, became a servant of this gospel.

-- Young's Bible
Colossians 1:23 if also ye remain in the faith, being founded and settled, and not moved away from the hope of the good news, which ye heard, which was preached in all the creation that [is] under the heaven, of which I became - I Paul - a ministrant.

-- Darby's Bible
Colossians 1:23 if indeed ye abide in the faith founded and firm, and not moved away from the hope of the glad tidings, which ye have heard, which have been proclaimed in the whole creation which is under heaven, of which *I* Paul became minister.

-- Webster's Bible
Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [are] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which hath been preached to every creature which is under heaven; of which I Paul am made a minister;

-- International Standard Version
Colossians 1:23 However, you must remain firmly established and steadfast in the faith, without being moved from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

-- Montgomery New Testament
Colossians 1:23 And this he will do if, indeed, you continue in the faith, firmly founded and stedfast, and never moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, and which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, that gospel of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

There wasn't much that the NIV could get away with doing regarding the present indicative tense in this verse, so it took a different approach to this hotly debated verse!


This discussion is getting way off topic, so I have started a new thread on the NIV.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Col 1:23 may very well be "your faith." If you know Greek, then you know that quite often, the article is a possessive. Vaughan (EBC), Abbott (ICC), and Bruce (NICNT) all take it the way that I do, the way that you do not. So there is considerable support against you. The idea there is personal commitment to the apostolic doctrine with all its implications for belief and life.

To blast the NIV over this shows yet again how far you are reaching ... It simply isn't a problem ... The NIV is a good translation, not a perfect one. But we are off topic, so let's stop here and pick it up elsewhere.